WEC Ginetta LMP1 - Page 72

Deleted · 21 Jul 2020, 15:39 (Ref:3989993)

Yes but running neutered, butchered P1 cars in 2021 was always just about as bad idea as was the theoretical possibility of running neutered GT1 cars in 2011 GTE-AM

I guess if you are Chris Dyson with cash it might make sense to enter Le Mans next year even with horribly slowed down Ginetta, given it's possible the new out of shelf Toyotas and Glickenhaus might explode with gremlins and give the trophy for best of the rest, but you might just as well achieve the same with Oreca 07. AER's track record is still terrible despite SMP Dallara managing podium last year

helgi · 21 Jul 2020, 15:59 (Ref:3989997)

It all started in a very intriguing way, with a Mecachrome deal. It could be a real old school cross-classes cooperation and not only chassis but an engine development story. But...
I really feel so sorry for journalists who still try their best writing anything "technical" about racing.

Deleted · 21 Jul 2020, 16:06 (Ref:3989998)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helgi

It all started in a very intriguing way, with a Mecachrome deal. It could be a real old school cross-classes cooperation and not only chassis but an engine development story. But...
I really feel so sorry for journalists who still try their best writing anything "technical" about racing.

Agree

With Mechachrome and the rest of the combinations in mind, in the end Le Mans 2018 was probably the final time there was a true, rich and pure constructors tech competition in sportscar racing... even though technically even that race was messed up with Toyota's forced-in stint advantage that resulted in penalties if not followed... Le Mans 2019 and to lesser extent 2020 now show the very last remnants of what there once was but essentially it is all over.

Racecar Engineering magazine, I'm unsure what the point of that publication is anymore, other than purely for discussing some aspects of Formula 1

Speaking of Chris Dyson, it's kind of interesting to have one man here who was there racing at the the final fall of LMP1 in America, and now showing up at the very end of worldwide LMP1 collapse too. In both cases making room for much more simplistic show cars, first for remnant dinosauric Grand-Am tube framers and their LMP2-based spec successors, and now for the panic-driven mess FIA and ACO have come up with in attempt to please everyone, yet in actuality pleasing very few

helgi · 21 Jul 2020, 16:34 (Ref:3990003)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Speaking of Chris Dyson, it's kind of interesting to have one man here who was there racing at the the final fall of LMP1 in America, and now showing up at the very end of worldwide LMP1 collapse too. In both cases making room for much more simplistic show cars, first for remnant dinosauric Grand-Am tube framers and their LMP2-based spec successors, and now for the panic-driven mess FIA and ACO have come up with in attempt to please everyone, yet pleasing very few

His racing career recollections would be worth reading. I would definitely buy it. Not saying about Ginetta's vision of modern racing landscape falling into some sort of communism (everything is standard but shifty persons still manage to live way better than 90% of others, and journalists are scared to write about it openly).

Deleted · 21 Jul 2020, 16:46 (Ref:3990005)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helgi

His racing career recollections would be worth reading. I would definitely buy it. Not saying about Ginetta's vision of modern racing landscape falling into some sort of communism (everything is standard but shifty persons still manage to live way better than 90% of others, and journalists are scared to write about it openly).

They would be... I wonder if he 'disappears' again once this is over

I guess it's understandable why the industry sportscar journalists don't want to talk about the shadiness of it all, because you know they want to be employed and invited to places in the future too. And as for the mainstream media, they and most of their readers don't care about sportscar racing in the first place, so there's no incentive to talk about the cartel business models of Hughes de Chaunac and alike, nor of political courtrooms where most things are decided today instead on race tracks

helgi · 21 Jul 2020, 17:09 (Ref:3990007)

All in all a sad situation. Maybe Ginetta will be able to turn to their "garagist" roots and supply more chassis for club racing or national level events. For example, I would have watched Italian Prototype championship if it wasn't a one make series. I have nothing against Wolf but some competition won't hamper them.

Deleted · 21 Jul 2020, 18:13 (Ref:3990019)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helgi

All in all a sad situation. Maybe Ginetta will be able to turn to their "garagist" roots and supply more chassis for club racing or national level events. For example, I would have watched Italian Prototype championship if it wasn't a one make series. I have nothing against Wolf but some competition won't hamper them.

Yes, let's remember that when Ginetta joined ACO racing in 2015, they were open to construct their own independent chassis in P1, P2 and P3. In addition, they were allowed to insert whatever engine and tires they would have wished on P1 and P2 cars. There was a clear dynamic hierarchy in constructors prototype racing - LMP1 you could do whatever you wanted, in P2 quite a bit of what you wanted (relatively speaking even if they had frozen cost cap rules already), and then you had junior entry level class in P3 (which was fine at the time because the other two classes above still allowed freedom).

Yet mere half a decade later the only class they can continue to compete is a frozen spec class of P3 - And even that is because they've struck exclusivity circle deal with the ACO. That is unless they wish to build LMH bop wagon, which they won't, or insert aesthetic and bopped body parts on LMP2 car other people made and sticker rebrand it as Ginetta LMDH, which they don't.

I've probably told you this earlier already but I strongly urge you to follow Thunderhill 25 Hours this December (if it's run) because it's one of the only puristic sportscar races left on the planet without ludicrous bop and spec rules. The margins between winning cars are massive and you have all sorts of weird stuff there, plus exotics of yesteryear such as Lola LMP2 the last time around. Streaming coverage has also improved over the years

helgi · 21 Jul 2020, 18:23 (Ref:3990022)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

I've probably told you this earlier already but I strongly urge you to follow Thunderhill 25 Hours this December (if it's run) because it's one of the only puristic sportscar races left on the planet without ludicrous bop and spec rules. The margins between winning cars are massive and you have all sorts of weird stuff there, plus exotics of yesteryear such as Lola LMP2 the last time around. Streaming coverage has also improved over the years

It's on my watch list for sure. I just do not want to make any firm plans (even for online streaming) as it usually goes horribly wrong when I try to predict anything.

Deleted · 21 Jul 2020, 18:27 (Ref:3990023)

Quote:

Originally Posted by helgi

It's on my watch list for sure. I just do not want to make any firm plans (even for online streaming) as it usually goes horribly wrong when I try to predict anything.

Know the feeling...

Napolis · 29 Jul 2020, 18:22 (Ref:3991449)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chiana

Yes but running neutered, butchered P1 cars in 2021 was always just about as bad idea as was the theoretical possibility of running neutered GT1 cars in 2011 GTE-AM

I guess if you are Chris Dyson with cash it might make sense to enter Le Mans next year even with horribly slowed down Ginetta, given it's possible the new out of shelf Toyotas and Glickenhaus might explode with gremlins and give the trophy for best of the rest, but you might just as well achieve the same with Oreca 07. AER's track record is still terrible despite SMP Dallara managing podium last year

We were looking a AER but in the end decided on Pipo.
Endurance test run on 4CYL development engine went very well.
Final 8CYL version will be testing soon.

Deleted · 31 Jul 2020, 02:24 (Ref:3991768)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Napolis

We were looking a AER but in the end decided on Pipo.
Endurance test run on 4CYL development engine went very well.
Final 8CYL version will be testing soon.

Interesting, I guess despite AER's questionable reliability history they've still been one of the very few LMP engine providers from the booming 2000's which have somehow managed to survive until here in small pockets (without exclusive spec contracts like Zytek and Oreca-Nissan). Meanwhile once more popular providers like Judd have disappeared to oblivion despite theoretically having offered options even for 2014 nonhybrid LMP1 and onwards

canaglia · 31 Jul 2020, 09:46 (Ref:3991798)

if am I not wrong, judd was the one who tuned the bmw m3 derivated engine for lmp2 up to 2016. Anyway no surprise that none is judd engines anymore, a high revving and poor efficient V10 is not a big deal and would require a huge work on rear subframe to fit it.

Napolis · 2 Aug 2020, 14:37 (Ref:3992318)

Quote:

Originally Posted by canaglia

if am I not wrong, judd was the one who tuned the bmw m3 derivated engine for lmp2 up to 2016. Anyway no surprise that none is judd engines anymore, a high revving and poor efficient V10 is not a big deal and would require a huge work on rear subframe to fit it.

We think you wan't a very small low revving engine with a very flat torque curve which is why our Pipo Motor will be a 3.5L TT V8 with a 6K red line.

canaglia · 2 Aug 2020, 18:26 (Ref:3992473)

performances aside, guess it's a real pain to fit a long and bulky engine like a V10.
About performances and efficiency; well, much depens also how well tuned is the engine... recall old lmp2/lmp1 NA 3.4L V8 were really low on torque and power (barely 550hp) requiring 75L a 40-45m stint, while the NA zytek/gibson 4.5L V8 powering rebellion has the same fuel/stint ratio but has much more power (about 700hp according rumors).
Anyway no doubts that turbo engines fit better.

Steve McQ · 17 Aug 2020, 10:58 (Ref:3995926)

My guess is that normally aspirated engine are really dependent on displacement regarding efficiency. Remember in 2011 when we had two Pescarolo Judd in LMP1 : one powered by the DB 3.4L V8, the other by the GV 5.0L V10 with smaller air restrictors. The two cars were more or less equally fast on track, but the big engined one was far more consistent (thank you torque) and could run longer on its fuel tank (thank you low revs).

And clearly, to get more than 550hp from a 3.4L normally aspirated engine was way beyond what privateer engine makers could achieve on the long run. That 2011 ACO engine rules was what effectively burried Judd and Zytek as LMP1 engine providers after the costly failures of their tuned-up LMP2 engines that year. Only factory engine efforts could compete reliably, as showed Acura/HPD or Toyota powerplants.