Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Yeah, that's what I thought I said. I agree.

What prevents TCR having the ATCC? Supercars organisation has the right to it. one five five can explain it better.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Manufacturer support validates and/or legitimises the series.

So by that statement, are you saying that any series without manufacturer support is no longer valid or legitimate?

I guess BTCC is lucky it didn't lose it's legitimacy in 2009 then - or is it a case of being manufacturer-backed no longer became relevant to the legitimacy in the UK at that time?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Alright, I'm going to have to think of another phrasing so you get my point. I can't think of it right now, give me some time to do so.

[Mixer]

Well manufacturer support is outlawed in GT and TCR so not sure where that leaves you....

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[S griffin]

How many GT series outlaw it though? And I'm sure Manufacturers try and get round it by offering some support anyway. TCR is different though, although it depends where the series is run there, as it doesn't work everywhere. WTCR and Macau have done well with the adoption of TCR, let's see how other series do

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

How many GT series outlaw it though? And I'm sure Manufacturers try and get round it by offering some support anyway. TCR is different though, although it depends where the series is run there, as it doesn't work everywhere. WTCR and Macau have done well with the adoption of TCR, let's see how other series do

Direct factory support for teams is explicitly outlawed, GT and TCR by nature is Customer racing.

Well except for Lynk and Co.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Actually, it's the biggest thing.

It validates the class and put in context what is being done and what competitors accomplish.

Well give it to them, no one outside of a few care about a now honestly defunct title. Suddenly awarding TCR the ATCC title will not make the class explode in popularity amongst fans. Infact 2020 there would have been no ATCC champion as TCR couldnt event run a single race, while supercars managed a decent season.

Absolutely. It changes how everything is seen, particularly from prospective competitor.

Do your history. The historical links are a huge factor. The two easiest recent examples would be looking at TCR UK/BTCC and Indycar racing.

TCR UK failed in the UK despite whatever strengths even though the cars are the same, because the BTCC title is of greater prestige due to the historical links.

CART eventually finished because it didn't have the Indy 500. It was a series that was effectively Formula 1.1, and it finished for no other reason than it didn't have the Indy 500 (A race in which American motorsport, including nascar) revolves around.

To put it in further context. If Supercars didn't have ATCC status, Peter Brock would be irrelevant.

I will agree to disagree, Supercars has the Bathurst 1000 event on its traditional weekend. This is the biggest event and equivilant to the INDY 500 here. Therefore even if TCR had the ATCC no one outside of a few history buffs would care. The general public most likely dont even know what ATCC stands for, yet know who the supercars champion is.


This type of comment is why car racing in this country limited.

Calling it a "grocery car" (Or as derp hero SVG said on radio some time ago "hairdressers car"). It's all fun and games to attempt to diminsh it that way, but all it does is show up how lightweight your own interest in racing is.

What is a grocery/hairdressers car? Well, it's just a car. Why would you and others (incl SVG) diminish it? Well, it's because your interest overall in car racing isn't really of substance.

You know what else is a grocery car?...Wait for it...A Holden Commodore and Ford Falcon are also grocery cars. Yes they are!

They are. They might've had a 5lt V8 for racing purposes, but that's it. They were representation of the bog standard 3-3.8lt cars. It's bizarre to me how other fans don't get that.

Once again my thoughs of a top level class are not hot hatches etc, maybe its big in europe but not in Australia. Australia racing fans have grown up on muscle cars (i will include commodores and falcons as they had V8s that plenty of owners supped up). The mustang and camaro will fit this ideology.

I didn't say anything before. But now you said this, I'll bring up your speedway fandom.

Speedway is lightweight. It's also a classic example of how lightweight supercars will bell. Speedway is held during the summer (Away from the AFL/NRL/Supercars season). It's on during the night (prime time), and is a greater spectacle than anything supercars could offer 5x over.

Yet, it's completely irrelevant amongst the Australian public. No one cares to even complain about it. Irrelevant.

Correct it is lightweight in terms of media coverage. Yet thousands still turn up each week at their local speedway. This weekend over 10 thousand will turn up at Perth Motorplex for speedway season opener, yet to see TCR get this sort of paying crowd.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Supercars fans, maybe. Car racing fans are interested.

The supercars series is for supercar fans?? Dont like it follow another series??

Manufacturer support validates and/or legitimises the series.

So if a series doesn't have manufacturer support its a valid race series? What kind of weird thing is this, are you a car manufacturer rep? Most people just want to see fast cars making loud noise, occasionally crashing.

Absolutely. The problem with supercars is that their rules are designed to keep things as they were in 1993. Despite the two reason for its existance don't care and exist anymore.

Incorrect, Supercars are V8 based since its inception (Something the fans love) and have now moved to allow 2 door coupes to compete.

N there isn't, bro. Refer to the historical evidence of Indycar racing.

Once again incorrect, where did all the group A drivers move to when Supercars came along? Brock, Seton, Skaife, Perkins etc. They raced supercars.

Nascar is a classic example of a community/industry that involves car racing, but don't actually like it.

Alot would argue this is totally incorrect, second biggest motorsport series on the planet. Drivers get paid millions to race. A lot of fans are fanatical about the series/drivers

No point in referring to one five five as idiotic when you don't know your history.

For clarification, the name Supercars was for marketing purposes and was to replace the "touring car" part. Supercars isn't actually anything, it's just a name.

Very similar to everything names I.e ATCC is just a name, TCR is just a name. Difference in Australia is that the majority of the population know what Supercars is

Supercars isn't a rule set. The cars racing under the supercars name has been Group 3A, Project Blueprint, Cotf, Gen 2, and now Gen 3.

Picking bones here, at the end of the day giving new rulesets a name is just marketing, they are still supercars ruleset.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yeah, that's what I thought I said. I agree.

What prevents TCR having the ATCC? Supercars organisation has the right to it. one five five can explain it better.

So far TCR in Australia has done nothing to deserve the ATCC title. They have run one season, where most of the cars were owned by the series owner. This season has seen no race run at all.

The ATCC name is owned by Motorsport Australia, who can therefore to award it to what ever class they wish. As Supercars is the most professional series in Australia, It is currently awarded to them.

If TCR can get a following, establish top teams and competitors, run consistent race meetings. They then will have a legitimate argument for the ATCC title.

But dont expect Supercars to lay down and die, If TCR want to be the top dog in Australian motorsports expect a huge fight. But maybe just maybe TCR dont want to be the top dog and are happy to be a lower alternative to Supercars, something they have stated is their objective.

Honestly its only disgruntled fans who dislike supercars, that want TCR to be the top dog.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Direct factory support for teams is explicitly outlawed, GT and TCR by nature is Customer racing.

Well except for Lynk and Co.

MSport is literally the factory Bentley team in GT3.

WRT don’t get direct factory support from Audi? What about Manthay Porsche? Schnitzer and Walkenhurst with BMW?

The entries in WTCR of the likes of JAS Honda or the Hyundai’s don’t get direct factory support?

I think you need to give up the Lynk & Co obsession.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by one five five

MSport is literally the factory Bentley team in GT3.

WRT don’t get direct factory support from Audi? What about Manthay Porsche? Schnitzer and Walkenhurst with BMW?

The entries in WTCR of the likes of JAS Honda or the Hyundai’s don’t get direct factory support?

I think you need to give up the Lynk & Co obsession.

Manthey are Porsche
https://www.porsche.com/usa/aboutpor...257C43002FC1B2

[benny41]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Supercars fans, maybe. Car racing fans are interested.


Manufacturer support validates and/or legitimises the series.

Absolutely. The problem with supercars is that their rules are designed to keep things as they were in 1993. Despite the two reason for its existance don't care and exist anymore.

N there isn't, bro. Refer to the historical evidence of Indycar racing.

Nascar is a classic example of a community/industry that involves car racing, but don't actually like it.

Are car racing fans interested ? What have the crowd numbers & viewership been for TCR this year ? Even last year? Don't get me wrong the racing is good to watch but it hasn't exactly grabbed the racing world. and outside of that ? go and ask 5 of your non racing mates what TCR is and see what the response is.

By the way im sure a few more people have seen a speedway meeting than a TCR race in the last 12 months. Speedways issue is that it is so fragmented with 70+ odd classes and no active promotional group to push the sport along. it is something with the right people pushing it could be an absolute winner.

The days of manufacturers tipping money into a series ( outside of F1 and maybe Formula E) are well and truly over. Sure they aren't going to say no to when a third party picks up there model and converts it to a race car of some sort but the investment directly from a manufacturer is done for.

The CART failure in the indycar wars is the exact opposite of the supercars/super touring battle. CART failed because it didnt have the big event. Supercars didnt have the big event and went head to head with Super Touring and won. How they did it is irrelevant.

Your NASCAR sentence doesn't even make sense ,sure its not everyone's cup of tea ( including mine) but id argue that it has pretty strong support even if it isnt at the heights it was in the 90's.

BTW Peter Brock is more famous for his Bathurst 1000 wins not winning the ATCC, which ironically weren't part of the ATCC at the time.

Cheers Bro

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

So by that statement, are you saying that any series without manufacturer support is no longer valid or legitimate?

I guess BTCC is lucky it didn't lose it's legitimacy in 2009 then - or is it a case of being manufacturer-backed no longer became relevant to the legitimacy in the UK at that time?

Reviewing my post and getting clear on the meaning of particular words. Manufacturer involvement is an endorsement of a series and/or team.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Reviewing my post and getting clear on the meaning of particular words. Manufacturer involvement is an endorsement of a series and/or team.

Okay, I think I understand what you mean.

To follow up- how vital is manufacturer endorsement of Supercars? To the teams, fans and organisers? Or to put it another way - would a lack of manufacturer endorsement be that much of an issue?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Yes it would be an issue. It is vital in supercars. It's a series that is trades off and is identified as a Ford vs Holden rivalry. What have they got now where one manufacturer doesn't care and gives token support, while the other doesn't exist?

Generally speaking, manufacturer endorsement adds to the credibility of a competition. Where there's a certain hollowness with a lack of endorsement.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yes it would be an issue. It is vital in supercars. It's a series that is trades off and is identified as a Ford vs Holden rivalry. What have they got now where one manufacturer doesn't care and gives token support, while the other doesn't exist?
.

Accepting what you say is accurate, I guess Supercars is a dead series then?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I can't say I agree with that statement. TCR UK struggled because it was an alternative series to BTCC. If the BTCC was to adopt TCR regulations, then TCR would be a success in the UK overnight.

What prevents ATCC from adopting TCR regulations?

It is not viable as a business case.

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Accepting what you say is accurate, I guess Supercars is a dead series then?

Not a dead series, just a facade.

They want the appearance of having manufacturer support whilst having none. I can't think of any benefit to running something like the Camaro - no manufacturer money, not for sale here, yet the chassis everybody already has needs to be changed to accommodate it. And Gen3 will be cheaper...

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

It is not viable as a business case.

Of course TCR is a viable business case for the ATCC. The cars are fairly cheap to buy and very, very cheap to run... the cost savings compared to COTF would be substantial.

Sticker them up in Red Bull, Monster and so on liveries and throw 32+ professional drivers at it and it would be a lot of fun indeed.

If the likes of 888 and Tickford want to retain a fabrication business, they could homologate cars like the BMW 128ti or Ford Focus ST and have a worldwide marketplace to service.


The return of the Ultimate Driving Machine(TM) to the ATCC would be very welcome indeed!

[S griffin]

I’m not sure TCR would work as a replacement for the current rules. TCR Australia can be a great series though. I think they could attract a few class drivers to the series and still have plenty in V8 Supercars, providing it’s more affordable

I think we will have even more exciting looking cars in 2022, just need to keep the right teams and drivers. Then the series will be back on track

There are some teams that have remained loyal to the series, but for how long? Some will, some won’t. We don’t need TCR, great idea it is. The cars we have now are a good base for the future. Let’s not get rid of what makes the series what it is

[one five five]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

Well give it to them, no one outside of a few care about a now honestly defunct title. Suddenly awarding TCR the ATCC title will not make the class explode in popularity amongst fans. Infact 2020 there would have been no ATCC champion as TCR couldnt event run a single race, while supercars managed a decent season

Supercars seems to care about it enough that they constantly reference ATCC statistics, and wanted the title when Ross Palmer wanted to use the ATCC name for GT Performance in 2003.

Yet they don’t care enough to market the name...

Originally Posted by benny41

BTW Peter Brock is more famous for his Bathurst 1000 wins not winning the ATCC, which ironically weren't part of the ATCC at the time.

Why is it ironic??

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Not a single team on the supercars grid wants to replace their series formula with TCR. Why cant TCR loyalists just build their series without trying to destroy Supercars.

Its clear that Supercars management and the teams believe that they need to retain a V8 engine with appropriate body wrapped around it. The Camaro was sold here as recently as last year, and their are rumors GM will sell it here again under their performance brand. If Supercars use that body, its even more likely the Camaro will be sold here again.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Yes it would be an issue. It is vital in supercars. It's a series that is trades off and is identified as a Ford vs Holden rivalry. What have they got now where one manufacturer doesn't care and gives token support, while the other doesn't exist?

Generally speaking, manufacturer endorsement adds to the credibility of a competition. Where there's a certain hollowness with a lack of endorsement.

I would disagree here, Supercars can move forward beyond being dependent on manufacturer money. Infact most teams have moved on from this already and replaced that lost money with sponsorship.

The Holden vs Ford rivalry wont die if the manufacturers aren't putting money into the sport, as long as the Mustang get raced and the Camaro replaces the commodore. Infact alot of fans think the new cars look awesome for 2022.

If TCR is much superior to Supercars due to more Manufacture endorsement, then TCR should boom. But i suspect in 5 years Supercars will still be the most popular motorsport in Australia by a wide margin.

[bloggs]

Kia says No to Gen3 as per Speedcafe.
Super Cheap to 888 as of next year and beyond as per Auto Action.

[tobyobi]

Originally Posted by bloggs

Super Cheap to 888 as of next year and beyond as per Auto Action.

Alongside or instead of Red Bull?