Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing > ACO Regulated Series

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 Jan 2021, 12:05 (Ref:4027942)   #8671
canaglia
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,076
canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brake dust View Post
Porsche did not go the the turbo route with their 991 GTE car. If I recall correctly, Porsche AG stated that BOP would address the torque differences of the various engines - so they did not believe turbo engines in the 911 would be of any advantage - so they opted to go with a lighter and less heat NA engine solution. Suspect that they will do the same with the new LMP.
torque is the amount of force that the engine generates and transmits to the driving wheels at a certain rpm interval. More torque is produced, higher power is achieved at lower rpm, less torque is produced the more higher the engine needs to rev to get more power. In a way or another the engine will reach however the top power, but having more torque becomes a considerable advantage in traffic situation because more torque lets the car to have a better acceleration from corners exit making it able to overpass sooner and easily slower cars. Having less torque, the car will lack of corners exit acceleration and will take more time to catch and pass slower cars. It's a situational physical advantage that bop will never be able to balance (unless to impose insanely long gear ratios). Due EoT, NA powered R13 and turbo/hybrid TS050 were able to run with similiar best absolute timelaps at le mans, but during the race when traffic started toyota used to say bye bye to rebellions.
GTE/GT3 are very heavy cars and the effect of more torque is however compensated by a really high mass (a=f/m) not to consider that when porsche gte was a RR layout car had the best acceleration possible since the engine was mounted on top or rear axle making less torque get lost between shafts and the torque curve was basically a flat line for most of the rpm range (that is basically the reason why 991 gt3r is still a traction killing machine under heavy rain). There isn't much to say about, only a big >5L NA engine may have the same high torque release and fuel efficiency of a mid-sized turbo engine, a smaller NA engine will have less torque and worse consumes no matter what.
canaglia is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2021, 12:38 (Ref:4027944)   #8672
jimclark
Veteran
 
jimclark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
United States
Champion Porsche/Audi territory
Posts: 1,610
jimclark has a real shot at the podium!jimclark has a real shot at the podium!jimclark has a real shot at the podium!jimclark has a real shot at the podium!
deleted, duplicate

Last edited by jimclark; 10 Jan 2021 at 12:57. Reason: duplicate
jimclark is offline  
__________________
"Those were the days my friends. We thought they'd never end..."

jimclark
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2021, 18:49 (Ref:4027996)   #8673
Brake dust
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2012
United States
Posts: 239
Brake dust should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
torque is the amount of force that the engine generates and transmits to the driving wheels at a certain rpm interval. More torque is produced, higher power is achieved at lower rpm, less torque is produced the more higher the engine needs to rev to get more power. In a way or another the engine will reach however the top power, but having more torque becomes a considerable advantage in traffic situation because more torque lets the car to have a better acceleration from corners exit making it able to overpass sooner and easily slower cars. Having less torque, the car will lack of corners exit acceleration and will take more time to catch and pass slower cars. It's a situational physical advantage that bop will never be able to balance (unless to impose insanely long gear ratios). Due EoT, NA powered R13 and turbo/hybrid TS050 were able to run with similiar best absolute timelaps at le mans, but during the race when traffic started toyota used to say bye bye to rebellions.
GTE/GT3 are very heavy cars and the effect of more torque is however compensated by a really high mass (a=f/m) not to consider that when porsche gte was a RR layout car had the best acceleration possible since the engine was mounted on top or rear axle making less torque get lost between shafts and the torque curve was basically a flat line for most of the rpm range (that is basically the reason why 991 gt3r is still a traction killing machine under heavy rain). There isn't much to say about, only a big >5L NA engine may have the same high torque release and fuel efficiency of a mid-sized turbo engine, a smaller NA engine will have less torque and worse consumes no matter what.
This is from Sportscar 365 regardining the mid engine 911 RSR:

“We finally opted for a normally aspirated engine exactly one year ago,” Walliser said. “The final go was a meeting between Dr. Blume [Porsche CEO] and myself in Bahrain.

“For the 911 concept, considering our actual engine lineup, a normally aspirated engine gives us more freedom in the car concept, e.g. weight distribution.”

However, Walliser doesn’t see it as a disadvantage, thanks to variable boost levels for turbocharged engines implemented by the FIA, ACO and IMSA that now provides a near-identical power curve for both normally aspirated and turbocharged engines.

“The rules are written in a way that gives turbos and normally aspirated engines the same power and torque behavior,” he said.


Will LMP BOP be able address this issue the way GTE seem too? Beleive it or not, the street version 997 GT3 is faster from 60 to 120 than the 911 Turbo. Might be mainly by weight differences.
Brake dust is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jan 2021, 19:06 (Ref:4027999)   #8674
canaglia
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,076
canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brake dust View Post
This is from Sportscar 365 regardining the mid engine 911 RSR:

“We finally opted for a normally aspirated engine exactly one year ago,” Walliser said. “The final go was a meeting between Dr. Blume [Porsche CEO] and myself in Bahrain.

“For the 911 concept, considering our actual engine lineup, a normally aspirated engine gives us more freedom in the car concept, e.g. weight distribution.”

However, Walliser doesn’t see it as a disadvantage, thanks to variable boost levels for turbocharged engines implemented by the FIA, ACO and IMSA that now provides a near-identical power curve for both normally aspirated and turbocharged engines.

“The rules are written in a way that gives turbos and normally aspirated engines the same power and torque behavior,” he said.


Will LMP BOP be able address this issue the way GTE seem too? Beleive it or not, the street version 997 GT3 is faster from 60 to 120 than the 911 Turbo. Might be mainly by weight differences.
you didn't understand the meaning of my previous post... anyway before the introduction of the new 4.2L of 2019-2020 911 rsr, 911 rsr (the original 2013 RR and the 2017 MR model) was simply using the same engine used on 997 gt3 rsr because porsche didn't need a new engine at all (turbo or NA). I'm not certain but likely the new 4.2L is based on that as well.
Acceleration is more influenced by mass than force (torque) but since lmp1, lmp2, gte are all in a similiar range of mass, it's clear that more torque gives a better acceleration. Aside that, acceleration is influenced by also a lot of other factors... cx of the car, gear ratios, width of tyres etc...
canaglia is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Jan 2021, 23:00 (Ref:4028838)   #8675
carbsmith
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,279
carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spyderman View Post
Ooh! First time I have seen this!
Are you able to provide a link?
Thank you!
https://www.fia.com/regulation/category/118
They're always here.

Yes it's the LMH regulations and not LMDh, but if the power units are going to be capped to the same power level and all the other basic car parameters are basically identical it would be crazy for this to not also apply.
carbsmith is offline  
Quote
Old 13 Jan 2021, 23:32 (Ref:4028842)   #8676
canaglia
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,076
canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
the link is this

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/fi...2020.12.16.pdf

page 92
Using a sim games mod tool, I'll try to recreate the torque/power curve as suggested by that graph
canaglia is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Jan 2021, 06:52 (Ref:4028887)   #8677
Spyderman
Veteran
 
Spyderman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Mozambique
Mozambique
Posts: 4,588
Spyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSpyderman should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Thank you all.
Spyderman is online now  
Quote
Old 14 Jan 2021, 16:46 (Ref:4029044)   #8678
canaglia
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,076
canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
honestly I still can't understand correctly that target power curve... because you know... it simply goes against physics lol...


you can see that according to the target curve and the table at side, the max power release increases constantly up to reach the top of 500KW at 95% of max torque peak release (0.95 N/Nmax)... then once it reaches 97.5% and 100% of max torque peak, the power curve of that graph is supposed to decrease! but that's basically impossible because increasing torque after top power is already reached, power will keep on increase as well! if an engine gets 500KW at 95% of torque release, at 100% will get >500KW anyhow and not less as this graph.
The peak of torque (basically value 1 of N/Nmax) is always reached before the top power, small-mid NA engines reach the peak of torque close to the peak of power at higher rpm; large NA engines and turbo engines usually reach the peak of torque at mid rpm, however before the peak of power, because it's how things work...

That power curve growth layout is basically the one of a mid/high-rev engine, likely NA, but values of N/Nmax torque are wrong... it had to be something like 464-475KW reached at 1.0 N/Nmax and top 500KW at about 0.85 N/Nmax. Or it's something I just can't understand or it basically doesn't make any sense... unless N/Nmax means something else unrelated to torque release, but if it was, why engine speed is indicated with that and not with a rpm range table according to possible rpm revlimits as happens with IMSA bop sheets?
canaglia is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Jan 2021, 20:59 (Ref:4029114)   #8679
carbsmith
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,279
carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!carbsmith is going for a new lap record!
It clearly says that column is engine speed and N/NMax is just a dimensionless fraction, I don't know why you think it must be Nm.
carbsmith is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Jan 2021, 21:54 (Ref:4029122)   #8680
canaglia
Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 1,076
canaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcanaglia should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by carbsmith View Post
It clearly says that column is engine speed and N/NMax is just a dimensionless fraction, I don't know why you think it must be Nm.
I clearly see that on X axis there is engine speed, but what does mean N/Nmax as dimensionsless fraction, or maybe you mean friction? can't understand the correlation
canaglia is offline  
Quote
Old Yesterday, 19:28 (Ref:4029493)   #8681
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 15,071
TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!TF110 is going for a new world record!
Its confusing to say the least. All in the name of equalization. Regulating power curves is a lot to undertake just to level the playing field imo.
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old Today, 02:56 (Ref:4029555)   #8682
Adam43
14th
20KPINAL
 
Adam43's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
European Union
New Orleans
Posts: 35,519
Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!Adam43 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by canaglia View Post
I clearly see that on X axis there is engine speed, but what does mean N/Nmax as dimensionsless fraction, or maybe you mean friction? can't understand the correlation
In the table it shows that 500kW occurs at 95% (fractions are dimensionless) of the maximum engine speed. The power then drops off after and is only 495kW.

Interesting that later on that page it says they will correct the curve for conditions! So if we are, say, at altitude there will be no loss of power and and turbo v. normally aspirated differences won’t show.

Must have a decent look at this doc at some point.
Adam43 is offline  
__________________
Always consider it could be sarcasm.
Quote
Reply



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion Gingers4Justice ACO Regulated Series 6771 18 Aug 2020 10:37
Audi LMP1 Discussion gwyllion ACO Regulated Series 11685 16 Feb 2017 10:42
Nissan LMP1 Discussion Gingers4Justice Sportscar & GT Racing 5568 17 Feb 2016 23:22
How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class Holt Sportscar & GT Racing 35 6 Jun 2012 14:44
Are there any differnces between a Porsche carerra cup Porsche and GT3 class Porsche? SALEEN S7R Sportscar & GT Racing 25 6 Feb 2008 21:06


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 13:08.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.