Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[Langers]

I certainly hope they don’t put on wider tyres and paddle shift!

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Langers

I certainly hope they don’t put on wider tyres and paddle shift!

I would think paddles are a given for Gen 3

[Maggo]

Originally Posted by one five five

I would think paddles are a given for Gen 3

[ford71]

I hope not!
Already too far down the wrong path

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by ford71

I hope not!
Already too far down the wrong path

Combustion engine racing is on the way out...

Francois Rebeiro, TCR category manager:

If we all love combustion motorsport, and I think we do, the coming years will be brutal, violent. There will be decisions, in any championship, which will be so hard, so difficult, in every category of motorsport. Rallying, F1, touring cars, GT. The series that won't adapt to the energy transition of the automotive industry can die.

Are Supercars doing enough to prepare for the future!?

It seems Francois Rebeiro is far, far, far more on the pulse than Sean Seamer, which the Supercars category surely has to find alarming...

.......

Therefore for Gen 3 I would propose:
- 2L turbocharged four cylinder engines producing 500hp, combined with a 150hp hybrid electric system, to retain the current 650hp.
- Flexible roll cage rules: but a decision needs to be made whether to require 2 door vehicles only (Mustang Ecoboost, BMW 830i etc) or 4 door vehicles only vehicles (Peugeot 508, Kia Stinger etc). Having sedans racing against coupes, as present, seems very sloppy.
- Significantly reduce homologation costs for a new manufacturer, including Supercars paying for homologations.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Combustion engine racing is on the way out...

Francois Rebeiro, TCR category manager:


Are Supercars doing enough to prepare for the future!?

It seems Francois Rebeiro is far, far, far more on the pulse than Sean Seamer, which the Supercars category surely has to find alarming...

.......

Therefore for Gen 3 I would propose:
- 2L turbocharged four cylinder engines producing 500hp, combined with a 150hp hybrid electric system, to retain the current 650hp.
- Flexible roll cage rules: but a decision needs to be made whether to require 2 door vehicles only (Mustang Ecoboost, BMW 830i etc) or 4 door vehicles only vehicles (Peugeot 508, Kia Stinger etc). Having sedans racing against coupes, as present, seems very sloppy.
- Significantly reduce homologation costs for a new manufacturer, including Supercars paying for homologations.

Coupes have raced Sedans in touring car competition the world over for 50+ years, why is it sloppy all of a sudden in 2019?

[Maggo]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Therefore for Gen 3 I would propose:
- 2L turbocharged four cylinder engines producing 500hp, combined with a 150hp hybrid electric system, to retain the current 650hp.

Why?
1. Hybrid increases costs and makes motorsport complicated
2. V8 is what we love on the supercars. I would not change that. Supercars will be dead within 2 years if the V8 leaves (like the Commodore)


If Gen3 is so cheap that we dont need manufacturers then Supercars has a future. We see now that car manufacturers change their minds within weeks so I would try to make Supercars independent from manufacturers and use cheap technology but make it fascinating for viewers and fans.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by Maggo

Why?
1. Hybrid increases costs and makes motorsport complicated
2. V8 is what we love on the supercars. I would not change that. Supercars will be dead within 2 years if the V8 leaves (like the Commodore)


If Gen3 is so cheap that we dont need manufacturers then Supercars has a future. We see now that car manufacturers change their minds within weeks so I would try to make Supercars independent from manufacturers and use cheap technology but make it fascinating for viewers and fans.

Hi Maggo,

I don't like the word cheap, but I have to agree with your sentiments, as relying an manufactures support is a road to no were. However, retaining silhouette bodies of iconic manufactures and or models, still makes sense, because the fan base, and the all important so called "eyeball" social media reach still responds to such stimuli.

Lower cost's can be achieved by the increased use of controlled components, and the biggest one is also the "Elephant in the room" the engine.

One thing that I regret not doing when I started V8 SuperTourers in New Zealand, back in 2012 was not offering a Ford based equivalent engine to the LS7 engine. Shortly before the collapse of the Series I was in the process of purchasing Ford aftermarket engine componentary to build such an engine alternative, the problem I faced back then that the Ford based engine was going to cost twice the price of the off the shelf LS7 crate engine. The fix for that, at least in my mind, was to make the two engine cost the same money, i.e. one subsidising the other.

Unfortunately the Series collapsed before I had time to introduce the concept, let alone put it into practice.

Cheers,

Mark.

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Maggo

Why?
1. Hybrid increases costs and makes motorsport complicated
2. V8 is what we love on the supercars. I would not change that. Supercars will be dead within 2 years if the V8 leaves (like the Commodore)

Why would it be dead if there are no V8's? Personally I watch for the style of racing rather than what's under the bonnet. It would make no difference whatsoever to me if it was a 4 cylinder engine or a V8. I seriously doubt the majority of fans only watch because they are V8's.



I can see there being a lot synergy between the direction the BTCC has gone in with it's new hybrid system and Supercars. Alan Gow (BTCC boss) has already said that they've shown a lot of interest in what they're doing. Hybrid doesn't have to be that complex or expensive but it ticks a lot of boxes for manufacturers which the big series need.

[Maggo]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi Maggo,

I don't like the word cheap,...

Cheers,

Mark.

perhaps is affordable the better word.

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

Why would it be dead if there are no V8's? Personally I watch for the style of racing rather than what's under the bonnet. It would make no difference whatsoever to me if it was a 4 cylinder engine or a V8. I seriously doubt the majority of fans only watch because they are V8's.

The sound of a V8 makes a lot of the fascination.

Originally Posted by Johno.UK

I can see there being a lot synergy between the direction the BTCC has gone in with it's new hybrid system and Supercars. Alan Gow (BTCC boss) has already said that they've shown a lot of interest in what they're doing. Hybrid doesn't have to be that complex or expensive but it ticks a lot of boxes for manufacturers which the big series need.

I like what BTCC is doing but I see no advantage in hybrid.
When the engine doesn't matter like you say (V8 vs R4) why would spectators care about hybrid systems? In my opinion they just increase the costs without a benefit.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Maggo

The sound of a V8 makes a lot of the fascination.

A V8 just sounds like two four cylinders joined together anyway, e.g, Lotus Espirt V8, Ferrari 488.

If you are desperate for the inline fours to sound lumpy and uneven like a Ford Boss 302, then either an unequal length header (a la old Subaru turbo) or crossplane crankshaft (a la Yamaha R1) in the inline four will do the trick.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Maggo

perhaps is affordable the better word.



The sound of a V8 makes a lot of the fascination.



I like what BTCC is doing but I see no advantage in hybrid.
When the engine doesn't matter like you say (V8 vs R4) why would spectators care about hybrid systems? In my opinion they just increase the costs without a benefit.

Spectactors don't care, but for manufacturers -- Honda, BMW, Mercedes Benz etc -- the hybrid is an essential step in the road towards electrification.

Racing pure combustion engines is seen as regressive.

People over 35 years of age, who have only ever known the romance and freedom of combustion engines, are rather not well placed to understand what young people think about combustion engines.

You need to think about what young people think about combustion engines: they are dirty polluting things that have ruined the environment.

To glorify having an oversized, inefficient combustion engine is not a good look.

It's somewhat immaterial that the B-doubles use more fuel than the actual race cars so in a season.

It's important to acknowledge that efficiency, even with a combustion engine hybrid, is important and chase as much efficiency as possible (e.g., F1 with nearly 50% thermal efficiency from their hybrid power units).

Think about how road cars are marketed these days:

Mazda Skyactiv
BMW Efficient Dynamics
Honda EarthDreams

Even if you are selling a car that has only a combustion engine and no hybrid or plug in electric part, the vehicle is still marketed on the basis of being *as efficient and environmentally conscious as possible* (even if it may be greenwashing, illogical etc).

[Maggo]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Spectactors don't care, but for manufacturers -- Honda, BMW, Mercedes Benz etc -- the hybrid is an essential step in the road towards electrification.

You remember that I was suggesting to be independend from car manufacturers?

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Racing pure combustion engines is seen as regressive.

Not at the current supercars fanbase.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

People over 35 years of age, who have only ever known the romance and freedom of combustion engines, are rather not well placed to understand what young people think about combustion engines.
You need to think about what young people think about combustion engines: they are dirty polluting things that have ruined the environment.

you will not gain young people as spectators with hybrid engines.

Most dont care about cars anymore.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's important to acknowledge that efficiency, even with a combustion engine hybrid, is important and chase as much efficiency as possible (e.g., F1 with nearly 50% thermal efficiency from their hybrid power units).

If you want to save fuel, stay at home and dont watch car races.

If you want racecars, you dont care about fuel efficency (during the race).
If you want fuel efficency you dont are about racecars.

Thats how I know it from the racetrack and from work/friends.
I don't know anyone who says: "Oh, if the racecars are burning less fuel I will watch that race for sure."


And if the majority of car buyers would care about fuel efficiency for climate reasons, they would not buy Pickup Trucks and SUV.
So in my opinion there is no reeason for hybrid racecars, except to change the minds of a car company’s board.

[Johno.UK]

Originally Posted by Maggo

I like what BTCC is doing but I see no advantage in hybrid.
When the engine doesn't matter like you say (V8 vs R4) why would spectators care about hybrid systems? In my opinion they just increase the costs without a benefit.

The advantage is that it makes it far easier for manufacturers to justify being in motorsport.


I wouldn't be so sure that no fans are interested. I know many teenagers who are into cars and many of them are far more interested in electric vehicles than V8's.

[Casper]

Hybrids will escalate costs, no one can deny that because an extra power source just got added and how many entrants could afford that cost as well as finding and affording the expertise to maintain the entire power train? it is far more viable to stick with an IC based engine and down the track build a spec roller skate with the drive train installed. Put a body on it and the costs will actually reduce I would think. Doing that will sort out who can drive and who can't because the parity will be built in apart from the fabrication work building the body. It may not be a very appealing thing at the moment but time will wear away the idea that we must have an IC based engine.