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Old 29 Sep 2020, 18:28 (Ref:4007433)   #151
tux
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Originally Posted by gert View Post
And WRT is thinking about it too ...
(as a replacement for their DTM activities)

https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/wr...lmp2-des-2021/
Would they not continue in DTM as Audi representative? I mean they already run R8 in GT World Challenge, ADAC GT Masters.
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Old 29 Sep 2020, 18:58 (Ref:4007440)   #152
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The link seems to be dead.

Here it is the right link


https://www.endurance-info.com/fr/ol...tif-pour-2021/
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Old 29 Sep 2020, 18:59 (Ref:4007441)   #153
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Tique should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And Car Guy is also looking to join in GTE


https://endurance24.fr/car-guy-racin...son-prochaine/
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Old 29 Sep 2020, 21:54 (Ref:4007469)   #154
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Would they not continue in DTM as Audi representative? I mean they already run R8 in GT World Challenge, ADAC GT Masters.
According to the article, it is far from certain there will be enough cars in the DTM GT championship.

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L’arrêt du DTM en fin de saison ouvre d’autres opportunités dans le camp WRT. La poursuite du championnat allemand avec des GT3 ne permet pas Ã* ce jour d’assurer un plateau.
"The end of the DTM (as-is) at the end of the season will open new opportunities for WRT. The continuation of the German championship with GT3 does not garantuee a full field at the moment"


Read that as: at the moment there are not enough (confirmed) entries to ensure hat the DTM GT championship will even survive.


Apart from that, WRT has been looking towards LMS/WEC/Le Mans for a while now.
They did a single LMS race at Spa a few years ago (Vanthoor/Vanthoor/Stevens in 2016)

Last edited by gert; 29 Sep 2020 at 22:02.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 09:59 (Ref:4007544)   #155
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It looks like LMP2 could become more Am. Possible that crews will have to include two Silvers or a Bronze. Not sure if that means two Platinum and a Bronze would be allowed.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html

Mods: please change thread title to WEC 2021 season, since we are going back to calendar years.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 11:47 (Ref:4007551)   #156
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It looks like LMP2 could become more Am. Possible that crews will have to include two Silvers or a Bronze. Not sure if that means two Platinum and a Bronze would be allowed.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html

Mods: please change thread title to WEC 2021 season, since we are going back to calendar years.
Thing, the idea of keeping LMP2 more Am is a nice idea if you have a good, structured, sustainable place for the more professional LMP2 teams to move to when they want to go Pro.

We saw this with Rebellion. People complaining "oh Rebellion aren't that good, they always make mistakes and are miles off Toyota". Well when Rebellion went down to LMP2 they won the championship and were cost Le Mans by a faulty starter motor, a standard issue part.

So they are clearly too good to be in LMP2 if the ACO want it to be an Am class. The current LMP1/Hypercar/LMDhU5+/UBERCAR regulations are all over the place, and the ACO seem to refuse to acknowledge any team smaller than a major manufacturer...so...what's going to happen to these sort of teams like Rebellion, Jota, United Autosports, who should be moving to the next step? You need these teams to move up, to provide slots for the good drivers who'll be out of a drive.

Seems like the ACO is finally thinking "oh maybe we should take care of the little teams!" but actually has no idea how to do it. But I'm sure Mr Ratel and the FE organisers will like this. Less Pros in ACO racing, more for thm.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 12:11 (Ref:4007555)   #157
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It looks like LMP2 could become more Am. Possible that crews will have to include two Silvers or a Bronze. Not sure if that means two Platinum and a Bronze would be allowed.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html
I'm not sure if I like that.

The push for "an Am for everybody" comes from people like Van Eerd (Mr. Jumbo) and - probably to a lesser extent - Hedman, Patterson and Perrodo who want to see their cars compete for wins.
They are both the weak link in the cars lineup and the reason the car is there.
Of course they can never win against teams with a full pro lineup or what they call 'a fake silver'.

I am not sure how to solve this problem.
Maybe just keep LMP2 as it is, and organize a podium and trophies for the Pro-Am entries in the class too, like SRO does.
Didn't we have that before?

--

One problem with going totally Pro-Am is that there will even be less space for a good decent Gold driver who is just not as quick as an established Gold or Platinum.


Another problem is the position this puts people like Rusinov and Hanson in (and thus G-Drive and United Autosports)
The G-Drive car is only there because of Rusinov. Rusinov is Gold. Since he had been upgraded to gold, he has always employed a young silver driver that was better than him (Van uitert, Jensen) so Rusinov was the 'weak link' in the lineup.
I'm not sure he is looking forward to be the Gold driver and have to employ 2 silvers or a bronze.
United Autosports evolves around Hanson. He is currently Silver and races with Albuquerque. They don't want another driver to maximize Phil's driving time.
Nobody will be surprised if Hanson gets upgraded to Gold.
Where will that put the #22 car in a Pro-Am field?
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 13:49 (Ref:4007567)   #158
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I am not sure how to solve this problem.
Maybe just keep LMP2 as it is, and organize a podium and trophies for the Pro-Am entries in the class too, like SRO does.
Have a viable LMP1 class that LMP2 teams who are getting too pro can move into. It wasn't that long ago that moving from LMP2 to LMP1 wasn't that expensive and chassis like Lola could be moved between them.

By allowing LMP1 to get too expensive to pander to manufacturers and limiting who can build customer chassis for LMP2, we completely blocked the stepping stone these teams would naturally make.

Create that bridge again. It solves the LMP2 and LMP1 issues together.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 14:59 (Ref:4007591)   #159
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Is LMP2 speed going to back to 2016 levels? (3 min 35 at Le Mans roughly) I'm not sure yet. Maybe someone else knows.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 16:55 (Ref:4007642)   #160
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Well, they are asking the teams what they want.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 17:09 (Ref:4007645)   #161
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https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...tions-intense/

I would be curious to know what sort of tyre Goodyear have been asked to develop. A more conservative set of slick options would be an easy way to slow LMP2 to keep them off the Hypercars' heels.
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 17:17 (Ref:4007648)   #162
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It looks like LMP2 could become more Am. Possible that crews will have to include two Silvers or a Bronze. Not sure if that means two Platinum and a Bronze would be allowed.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html

Mods: please change thread title to WEC 2021 season, since we are going back to calendar years.
This is what LMP2 should have been in the first place. The current half baked mandatory "fake silver" line up in the class makes it a bit of a farce as it is.

Better to react now and keep Am's like Van Eerd, Hedman etc interested otherwise they will leave to another class (Perrodo) or go altogether. The young silver drivers are less of a gurantee in the long run than an established enthusiast. Remember a lot of the young silvers have/had single seater aspirations and if seats in F3/F2 etc are available for a good price they may find their way back. True Ams who love Le Mans will turn up even if they have no chance of winning their class but if it begins to take the **** in a championship class they have sunk a lot of money into then they will lose motivation.

In the LMP1 Hybrid heyday in the WEC (14-16), it would have been a perfect time to reintroduce an LMP1 class back to the ELMS for non hybrids. As Akrapovic notes, a viable LMP1 class that could be the perfect ground for those nearly all pro LMP2 teams.

With the huge influx of high quality teams running an LMP2, if only half had upgraded to LMP1 they would have had a chance of an outright overall win in the championship and not have to worry about getting certain driver lineups etc.
I'm sure between Jota, TDS, SMP, Signatech and others at least half a dozen LMP1 cars could have been done.

With the higher costs new LMP2 (post 2017), from what I gather there is not a huge difference running cost wise per hour for a Rebellion R13/Dallara BR1 with a Gibson compared to an Oreca 07 (according to one source I know of)
Spares is another issue thanks to near monopolies but that's another rant for another place...

Thus you could have Pro + quick upcoming Silver with a budget who can be upgraded to Gold without fear of losing their drive the next year because they are too quick as an "Am" but not fast enough to be a full pro platinum driver. Thus someone like a Rusinov and Hanson can be the "weak link" and have regular teammates without either having to reshuffle the lineup, not worry about being upgraded and an incoming decent if not world beating ex F3 racer with a budget can come straight in as a gold into a LMP1 Non Hybrid and compete for outright wins.

Like gert, I doubt there is/was an easy solution to this but the fact remains that more places you can race a car, the better your chances are. Why does GT3 and LMP2 do so well? Options.
LMP2 is a much better investment for a lot of teams for the simple fact that you can race 1 car in 4 different championships and at Le Mans with 2 of those championships being the top class but I'll stop there before straying off topic anymore
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 17:27 (Ref:4007650)   #163
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With the R13 becoming available for teams in LMP1. It might be a good opportunity for team like United to jump to this caetory with driver like Hanson. I don't thnik that the opperating cost of rening a downgraded LMP1 will be much different than a LMP2.
Might be an opportunity for G-Drive also as they have said that they are interested to come back in the WEC.


It is happens, we might have a better field in LMP1/LMH and a LMP2 class that is closer for a performance point.


Let's wait and see as Graham is saying
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Old 30 Sep 2020, 21:10 (Ref:4007700)   #164
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Well, they are asking the teams what they want.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...-for-2021.html
Interesting.

But out of
1. don't change a thing
2. add 'Pro-Am' as a separate subclass with its own championship and podiums (see SRO)
3. require one bronze or 2 silvers

I am not convinced that #3 is the best solution short-term.


Those most vocals about it (Van Eerd, notably) are the one who benefits most -- of course.

I'm not convinced G-Drive and United/Hanson fit well in that scenario.
As for the LMP1 scenairo, that isn't there at the moment - unless someone really wants to run Ginettas ?
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 11:26 (Ref:4007958)   #165
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The possible driver pairing changes also put Davidson's future in doubt
Jota's entry of Gonzalez - Da Costa - Davidson would be disallowed in scenario #3

He prefers separate Pro and Pro-Am classes, and thinks the field is big enough for that.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...mp2-rule-tweak
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 11:53 (Ref:4007964)   #166
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My opinion on that matter of LMP2 drivers line-ups is that the ACO should create a system allowing only certain kind of combinations. For example, give each driver rating a "points" equivalent and say that a full 3 drivers line-up should have a maximum of X points.

For instance :
Bronze driver = 1 point
Silver driver = 2 points
Gold driver = 3 points
Platinum driver = 4 points.

Say that 3 drivers line-ups should have a maximum of 7 points when you add them all and you effectively ban too strong combinations like Platinum+Platinum+Silver. You also give more room to gold and silver drivers.

Plus, considering the number of P2 entries managed by very strong teams, I think ACO should allow privately owned and run LMH and LMDH to run for overall honors in ELMS from 2022. That championship being cheaper than the WEC, it would allow teams to put more money in top class cars and drivers with the aim of running for glory at Le Mans as a massive cherry on the cake.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 15:13 (Ref:4008029)   #167
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My opinion on that matter of LMP2 drivers line-ups is that the ACO should create a system allowing only certain kind of combinations. For example, give each driver rating a "points" equivalent and say that a full 3 drivers line-up should have a maximum of X points.

For instance :
Bronze driver = 1 point
Silver driver = 2 points
Gold driver = 3 points
Platinum driver = 4 points.

Say that 3 drivers line-ups should have a maximum of 7 points when you add them all and you effectively ban too strong combinations like Platinum+Platinum+Silver. You also give more room to gold and silver drivers.
I see what you mean.

Maybe 8 points would be better than 7?
7 would rule out bronze-platinum-gold too.


Ironically, both 7 and 8 would rule out platinum-platinum-bronze lineup, so that would exclude all of Van Eerd - Van der Garde - De Vries (9), Rusinov - Jensen - Vergne (G-S-P = 9), Gonzalez-Davison-da Costa (S-P-P = 10), Hanson-Albuquerque-Di Rest (S-P-P = 10)
So that system would never be accepted by Van Eerd, Rusinov or Hanson.

Brundle-Owen-Van Uitert (G-S-G = 8) would be allowed at 8, banned at 7.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 20:22 (Ref:4008102)   #168
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I get why Van Eerd and his ilk are annoyed by the current system, and I agree they should be.
I'm not sure a points system, or a change the the 2 Pros + 1 Am, is required.
After all, the issue is with 'fake silvers'.
Everyone, including those who do the driver grading, know the drivers that are fake silvers.
These aren't amateur drivers, they're simply professional drivers that haven't achived a lot yet.
This could be decided by the ACO / FIA / whoever on a case by case basis.
After all, there aren't actually that many cases that they'd need to decide on each winter/spring, so it wouldn't take much work, right? Maybe?


Or, just split LMP2 into LMP2-Pro and LMP2-Am and cause Chiana's head to explode
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 20:31 (Ref:4008103)   #169
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So that system would never be accepted by Van Eerd, Rusinov or Hanson.

Yeah surely. But when you are the rulemaker, you don't need, and you should not, do what your competitors want you to do.
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Old 2 Oct 2020, 21:06 (Ref:4008116)   #170
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Yeah surely. But when you are the rulemaker, you don't need, and you should not, do what your competitors want you to do.
The only reason they are thinking of changing it is because people like Van Eerd complain.
And he complains A LOT about how unfair it is that he is nmot allowed to win.
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Old 3 Oct 2020, 00:33 (Ref:4008143)   #171
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Until GT1 died and GT2 got split into GTE Pro and Am, Ams ran in GT2 and didn't complain much, at least publicly.



But now the Ams, I think in part because of the GTE split and trying to discourage factory teams in LMP2 after 2007/08 (by essentially mandating pro-am line ups in the ELMS and LM and later the WEC) expect to be able to have a shot at winning, I do say either split LMP2 into pro and am, create a pro-am cup for LMP2 within the class, or make LMP1 viable for private teams.
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Old 3 Oct 2020, 09:29 (Ref:4008196)   #172
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make LMP1 viable for private teams.

This is exactly why I think LMH/LMDH (if built or run by private entrants) should be allowed back in ELMS.
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Old 3 Oct 2020, 15:15 (Ref:4008272)   #173
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This is exactly why I think LMH/LMDH (if built or run by private entrants) should be allowed back in ELMS.
Racing as we've known it is not going to exist going forward.
There will be huge changes.
The magnitude of these changes grows every day.
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Old 3 Oct 2020, 23:17 (Ref:4008373)   #174
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Until GT1 died and GT2 got split into GTE Pro and Am, Ams ran in GT2 and didn't complain much, at least publicly.



But now the Ams, I think in part because of the GTE split and trying to discourage factory teams in LMP2 after 2007/08 (by essentially mandating pro-am line ups in the ELMS and LM and later the WEC) expect to be able to have a shot at winning, I do say either split LMP2 into pro and am, create a pro-am cup for LMP2 within the class, or make LMP1 viable for private teams.
I think it also has a lot to do with GT3 coming along though. Until that time if you were an amateur driver and you wanted to race GT cars you had 3 choices. GT1, GT2 or Carrera Cup/national level series. Now drivers have the choice of 10s of different championships and the pool of "paying" drivers for ACO/IMSA can decide to pay 100s of thousands of dollars/euros/pounds race against other like minded individuals AND have the chance to win rather than just drive around in midfield against pros.
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Old 4 Oct 2020, 00:01 (Ref:4008384)   #175
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I think it also has a lot to do with GT3 coming along though. Until that time if you were an amateur driver and you wanted to race GT cars you had 3 choices. GT1, GT2 or Carrera Cup/national level series. Now drivers have the choice of 10s of different championships and the pool of "paying" drivers for ACO/IMSA can decide to pay 100s of thousands of dollars/euros/pounds race against other like minded individuals AND have the chance to win rather than just drive around in midfield against pros.
GT1 and GT2 were run in various international and regional championships in the 2000's too, just as in the modern era there were dozens of choices. Not only did you have LM, ALMS, LMS, ASLMS, FIA GT, and IGTO, but many nationals run them too, including earlier British and Italian championships. French GT and Super GT even had GT1 cars as late as 2009. Every AM was perfectly fine with running along PROs, remember that both GT1 and GT2 had factory or semifactory entries in them as well as privateers. Neither class was intended for pro or am, but the base car type was the major factor, as it should be. There were rules.

Moving on, they probably will listen to the whines of amateurs here again, after all a guy like Hedman got a waiver that went against FIA rules when he was magically allowed to compete in LMP1 too. LMP2-PRO and LMP2-AM would be a terrible idea, continuing the list of terrible ideas since 2011, but again in the grand scheme of things it would be like drilling a hole into already shinking ship. And also, even though LMP2 as it is is a hollow shell of a spec class, it could stil be worse even with sub classes (= fabricated bop classes like LMH and GTE are always worse to my mind, at least we know that the boring and unchanged Oreca 07 wins by merit every round, even if it is "thanks" to Hughes de Chaunac)

Nonhybrid LMP1s would have been great for ELMS and ASLMS even as late as 2018-19 but obviously that ship has long sailed now

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