Blocking or Weaving

[Tim Falce]

A question mainly I suppose for the observers on here. In my race at Mallory yesterday I noticed a couple of guys were quite enthusiastic about keeping people behind them to the point that they were actually weaving in front of the the faster following car. This happened to me on a couple of occasions and I witnessed one guy weaving in front of another car we were racing.
To me, moving over and changing line to protect a corner is reasonable but to come out of the Devils Elbow and move to the right to block then move left and right again seems a bit unreasonable and possibly dangerous.

So following on from the "Drivers on Post" thread what's the general consensus from marshals and observers on blocking or weaving? I did mention it to one of the drivers concerned but he seemed to think it was OK and the norm so am I being too old and gentlemanly or is he wrong and would it be reported if noticed?

[Nighthawk]

Blocking , Yes I would report it if I witness it but.....!!!
It’s the sort of think that unless it’s blatantly obvious is very difficult to differentiate between a legal move and foul play also very difficult to prove in a appeal....

[kimbo]

As a marshal, I am a trainee, so I guess more experienced people will be along to express the 'official' view.
On a personal level, I would have thought that the 'one change of direction' rule, which now seems to have become accepted as the norm, would apply, i.e. having moved to cover one side of the track, you then cannot move to the other side to block, until taking your line for the next corner. I think.
I hate the blocking tactics which seem to be in widespread use today. If you mess up a corner, by all means 'go defensive', but dont then move again to intimidate or block if the following driver starts to overlap. Same when a faster car comes up behind.
I once made myself very unpopular by stating my views on this type of driving at a kart race meeting in which my son was taking part (although he was not involved in the particular race). I was told that I was all kinds of an idiot and that 'defending' was an integral part of racecraft. I say defending yes, weaving no!

Kim.

[The Fat Clerk]

I wa on the Esses yesterday as a Marshal and witnessed what you're talking about. On 2 consecutive laps the a car 'blocked' his pursuer into the Hirpin, I was about to phone it in, when on the next lap they had swapped places and the erstwhile pursuer shot off into the distance. With my 'Clerks' hat on I'd allow you one move, after that you'd get the driver warning flag and after that you'd be talking to me.
As I driver I do it as much as I can get away with

[Steven Humphrey]

I know they're very strict on 'blocking' in the US and have seen good battles end because a dubious penalty has been dished out. It shouldn't be easy to overtake, just because you have a slightly faster car but any move that is dangerous should be reported, in my opinion. Blatant weaving=bad. Clever defensive driving=good!

[Bodysnatcher]

Exactly what Blackhawk says

plus
factor in a Clerk of the Course who either
may not give two hoots about it
or has a bee in his bonnet about it

Again a live messaging net would allow rolling commentary to & from Observers/Race control.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by arnage arnie

It shouldn't be easy to overtake, just because you have a slightly faster car but any move that is dangerous should be reported, in my opinion. Blatant weaving=bad. Clever defensive driving=good!

I have no problem with moving over to defend a corner, I do it and fully expect it to be done to me. But moving over and then changing line again forcing someone to suddenly back off or take to the grass isn't right or safe surely?

[The Fat Clerk]

Correct answer, unless you're in BTCC of course!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

I wa on the Esses yesterday as a Marshal

Off topic but in race 4 do you know how the guy in the Ginetta managed to have an accident under yellows by the scene of the original incident?

[diz]

Seems to make the Raceiver they use in Legends make even more sense.
Every driver has an earpiece and all he can hear is Race Control. It's a receive only system.

Every driver hears the broadcast.
Such useful things as:
1. Big oil spill right hand side of track in The Esses - advance warning
2. No.27 stop corner cutting - 27 knows he is being naughty and so do all the other drivers.
3. No 22 10 second penalty - he and everybody else knows.
4. Safety Car being scrambled. Car(s) in dangerous position apex of Old Hall
5. Car 42 overtake the Safety Car, or Car 96 catch up with the train of cars ahead
etc., etc.,
And in the case of this thread, Car whoever, stop annoying [sorry blocking] Timbo.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by diz

And in the case of this thread, Car whoever, stop annoying [sorry blocking] Timbo.

Don't get me wrong, it only happened to me twice and on one of those occasions I didn't have the speed or power to do anything about it anyway but I did notice it being done to other drivers as well which is what promoted the thread.

[The Fat Clerk]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Off topic but in race 4 do you know how the guy in the Ginetta managed to have an accident under yellows by the scene of the original incident?

Yes, even though he'd already passed the incident 3 times (waved yellow flags, Marshals on the track etc) he came through at full speed out of shape through the Esses, put a wheel on the grass and his car in the barriers.
I was the first person to him, he was speaking incohentrly and drifting in and out of consciouness.

[Tim Falce]

Thanks to you and everyone who looked after him. I've heard that he may be out of hospital tomorrow, apparently he has a broken collar bone and a couple of cracked vertebrae.

[The Fat Clerk]

Lucky lad, it really was a heavy shunt.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by The Fat Clerk

Yes, even though he'd already passed the incident 3 times (waved yellow flags, Marshals on the track etc) he came through at full speed out of shape through the Esses, put a wheel on the grass and his car in the barriers.
I was the first person to him, he was speaking incohentrly and drifting in and out of consciouness.

If he was driving as described, I doubt if he could speak coherently or was ever really fully concious anyway. This is just the sort of s**t driving that should be punished by a lengthy ban, imposed on the day by the Clerk-of-the-Course, pour encourager les aȗtres.

In the interests of justice, there must be a right of appeal to the RACSMA, with the appeal to be convened expeditiously. Appellant to be allowed to race pending appeal, but all points and prize money (and, of course, the Appeal fee plus costs) to be forfeited should the Tribunal find against the appellant.

It won't ever happen, of course, because the gutless t*ssers at RACSMA would be so sh*t-scared of one of the young psychopaths who run in the single-seat ladder formulae, or the rich old b*stards who have so ruined historic racing by their cheating and dirty driving, turning up at the appeal proceedings with a Silk, that they wouldn't countenance introducing such a procedure. If they did, it is likely that they would, through lack of moral courage, persistently undercut the contemporaneous decisions of Clerks-of-the-Course, who in turn would undercut their observers and marshals, and before very long, no-one would really bother reporting this sort of thing any more (a bit like at present, in fact).

I watched, and latterly participated in, circuit racing from the late sixties to the late eighties, and viewed with increasing disgust the steady decline in driving standards in the various one-make series, Production Saloons, Formula Ford, Formula First, and best/worst of all, the BTCC; yet what I viewed then with utter contempt is but a mere bagatelle compared with what is to be seen at virtually every meeting these days.

I recognise that this post has become a rant, but I don't see it as being in any way off-topic, and I look forward to receiving opposing views from other perspectives.

[The Fat Clerk]

If I could add, he was displaying a Novice cross, now I dont know if it was his first race but............................

[Stephen Green]

Clive, there is a rule regarding the dodging of the autocensor, please adhere to it!

[SWCRacing]

I also suggest you read the Blue Book. Only the Stewards can impose a ban (up to 30 days) for breach of reg Cd 1g - abusive language, threat of violence etc. The Clerks can impose a penalty up to and including exclusion for driving in a manner incompatable with general safety etc Cd1e. The Stewards can then, if the belive the offence was serious and warrants further sanction , impose a ban of up to 30 days.
I would assume that had the competitor concerned not injured himself so much that he required hospitalisation this would have been the course of action that would have been taken

[Tim Falce]

I can't comment on his driving standards as I don't know the person, I've been away from this series for this year and I think he has come over recently from a Ginetta series. But I must say I was a bit worried in that I thought I'd missed seeing this car on the two times I passed the original incident and that it may have been there all the time and my eye sight was worse than I thought.
However the last time I passed the orange car all yellow flags were being shown at the correct posts and then the red lights were showing as I came out of Devils Elbow. The ambulance was in place by the time we were marshalled round the loop by the Esses so well done for the speed with which this was handled.

[Clive Brown]

Originally Posted by SWCRacing

I also suggest you read the Blue Book. Only the Stewards can impose a ban (up to 30 days) for breach of reg Cd 1g - abusive language, threat of violence etc. The Clerks can impose a penalty up to and including exclusion for driving in a manner incompatable with general safety etc Cd1e. The Stewards can then, if the belive the offence was serious and warrants further sanction , impose a ban of up to 30 days.
I would assume that had the competitor concerned not injured himself so much that he required hospitalisation this would have been the course of action that would have been taken

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's not happening, and it's not working. Look at the sheer number of incidents discussed on this Forum, and watchable on various forms of media; QED!

[Al Weyman]

As he had a bad accident and smashed the car and himself I do hope the outlook is not that he has been punished enough as surely for all our sakes that deserves a penalty. Does mallory bring the madness out in drivers I wonder (says he accidently punting someone off at the hairpin on the last lap after I locked up) because we had a driver that was given countless black flags for dropping oil and just refused to pull off, dont get it.

Tim in my race going in to the hairpin I kept tight to the inside not taking the racing line as I was being tackled by the BMW CS although I could loose him everywhere else, now would you call that ungentlemanly or OK in your book?

[KSR88]

Some racing in the U.S. is very hard on blocking.
Indy Car defines it as the second move--you are allowed to choose a line but that is it - the second move to block is a penalty.
In 2008 at the Detroit GP Helio Castro Neves was forced to allow Justin Wilson past because he double blocked after a warning......that is how it should be. Justin was able to win the race.
In SCCA racing -without radios - the starter will shake a furled flag at the driver as a warning before black flagging them.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Tim in my race going in to the hairpin I kept tight to the inside not taking the racing line as I was being tackled by the BMW CS although I could loose him everywhere else, now would you call that ungentlemanly or OK in your book?

I refer you to my earlier post.

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

I have no problem with moving over to defend a corner, I do it and fully expect it to be done to me. But moving over and then changing line again forcing someone to suddenly back off or take to the grass isn't right or safe surely?

[Bryan Degerlund]

Originally Posted by KSR88

In SCCA racing -without radios - the starter will shake a furled flag at the driver as a warning before black flagging them.

At Laguna Seca earlier this year, I was chastised by SCCA Race Control for being too British and not shaking the furled black flag with enough vigour. The drivers certainly took note on subsequent occassions.

[bdwoody]

this all could decend into as what happened here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBeuoJmZ7g as per the other thread . look at 3.00 minutes on.