Can Alexander Albon survive at Red Bull?

[Casper]

I think Bottas is safe as long as Hamilton is still in the team. What has to be remembered is that Hamilton combined with Mercedes has built a brand image and no one including Liberty want to see that end. To have the 2nd driver whoever that might be beating Hamilton would destroy the brand's value. It is most probably the first time a driver has deliberately taken this approach and the team has actively supported it. You are watching marketing 101 at its best.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Casper

I think Bottas is safe as long as Hamilton is still in the team. What has to be remembered is that Hamilton combined with Mercedes has built a brand image and no one including Liberty want to see that end. To have the 2nd driver whoever that might be beating Hamilton would destroy the brand's value. It is most probably the first time a driver has deliberately taken this approach and the team has actively supported it. You are watching marketing 101 at its best.

Really? So Lewis' image is more important to Merc than his performance.
I suspect Liberty like the Daimler board are only interested in Lewis the driver. As long as he keeps winning the non racing nonsense will be tolerated upto a point.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Really? So Lewis' image is more important to Merc than his performance.
I suspect Liberty like the Daimler board are only interested in Lewis the driver. As long as he keeps winning the non racing nonsense will be tolerated upto a point.

I happen to think you are wrong. I will predict that LH remains part of mercedes marketing and possibly the racing team as well long after he stops racing.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull

Leaving the Verstappen-Leclerc hypotheticals to one side,

Verstappen-Leclerc is not practical, however if Mercedes continue to refuse to promote Russell than Red Bull could swoop in and snap up Russell for the 2022 season! Verstappen-Russell would be a very solid lineup IMO.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Casper

I happen to think you are wrong. I will predict that LH remains part of mercedes marketing and possibly the racing team as well long after he stops racing.

I would imagine so.

As for chunterer’s point. It’s very unlikely that Mercedes are prioritizing image over results.

But you can’t tell because he’s pummeling everyone with the results.

[S griffin]

I seriously doubt image comes into the minds of Merc, results will speak for themselves

[Adam43]

I’m sure it does, the marketing lot will grab hold of it, but after they’ve got someone who’s giving them the best chance of winning the GP. If they happen to align with certain values then they’ll grab hold of that. Of course.

I suppose if you went to the extreme the other way and a driver was way off acceptability it might mean you don’t get a drive. No matter how good they are if they go round kicking puppies then they ain’t getting a drive.

So marketing the image won’t be the driver, far from it, but it is part of the equation. Results carry by far the biggest weighting though.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Hamilton would hardly be marketable without results. To use an example more related to the thread topic, Max Verstappen is earning himself quite the reputation outside the hardcore F1 fanbase, whereas Alex Albon is rather anonymous.

[Adam43]

Exactly.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I seriously doubt image comes into the minds of Merc, results will speak for themselves

I doubt they would spend hundreds of millions on anything other than their image, else why would they bother?

[Adam43]

Well, obviously, the whole exercise is to get their name around and be seen in a positive light.

But that just seems like easy point scoring as surely it is obvious that SG was referring to specifically the Hamilton bit. It was clearly a reference to whether the overall goal is fulfilled better by prioritizing talent or image in the driver.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I’m sure it does, the marketing lot will grab hold of it, but after they’ve got someone who’s giving them the best chance of winning the GP. If they happen to align with certain values then they’ll grab hold of that. Of course.

Exactly so why would MB want a second driver upsetting the apple cart they have created by beating Hamilton on a regular basis. I think they learned their lesson when Rosberg won the WDC and then compounded it by kicking dirt in their face by leaving giving them no opportunity to build on his being WDC.

Hamilton either worked out what creating a brand means or someone pointed it out to him and he has been doing that ever since and MB have gone along for the ride.

[Adam43]

I think everyone ascribes far more credit or envisions some much greater master plan than is actually happening.

These things are far more likely to have just happened and people have gone along for the ride taking advantage when they can.

[chillibowl]

it would have been really helpful to this debate if Rosberg didnt retire.

But if Nico stayed after winning, im not entirely sure Merc would have favoured LH outright in 2017. They would have probably been destroyed by the press and fan base had they done so.

Would it be fair to say LH caught a massive break with Nico's retirement?

*Should have put that in the goat thread.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think everyone ascribes far more credit or envisions some much greater master plan than is actually happening.

These things are far more likely to have just happened and people have gone along for the ride taking advantage when they can.

I totally agree and when they saw what was happening it was actively pursued by both parties.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

it would have been really helpful to this debate if Rosberg didnt retire.

But if Nico stayed after winning, im not entirely sure Merc would have favoured LH outright in 2017. They would have probably been destroyed by the press and fan base had they done so.

Would it be fair to say LH caught a massive break with Nico's retirement?

*Should have put that in the goat thread.

Yes any further discussion should be there.

[Biscuits In A Red Bull]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Would it be fair to say LH caught a massive break with Nico's retirement?

Yes.

[Adam43]

Yes, Rosberg was better than Bottas is.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by gert

I don't think I missed a point.

If the second Red Bull driver is a threat by putting him on a different strategy to Hamilton/Verstappen, Mercedes will react by countering that with Bottas.

It's not as simple as that. The mere existence of a 2nd car within the pitwindow of the competitors car, strongly limits strategic options. Undercutting behind a competitors cars is very risky.


Also pincher moves from a competitors 2nd car can be counteracted with your own 2nd car if it's within the pitwindow.


With just one car inside of your competitors pit window, you're always at a disadvantage.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

It's not as simple as that. The mere existence of a 2nd car within the pitwindow of the competitors car, strongly limits strategic options. Undercutting behind a competitors cars is very risky.


Also pincher moves from a competitors 2nd car can be counteracted with your own 2nd car if it's within the pitwindow.


With just one car inside of your competitors pit window, you're always at a disadvantage.

I know, but people seem to think having a stronger 2nd driver will give Verstappen more points.
That is not necessarily true.

If Red Bull #2 (whoever that is) is in a good postition and put on an alternative strategy that is a danger to a Mercedses win, Mercedes will use one of its own driver to cover/counter that and keep the other one on Verstappen's strategy.

That alone may give Verstappen more points because Bottas (let's asume it's him) is now out of his way.
But just how many times Verstappen finished 2nd anaway, so how many more points would give him that?

It may also cost Verstappen points. If the alternative strategy works, Red Bull #2 and Mercedes #2 may end up in front of Verstappen too.


A competitive Red Bull #2 will give Red Bull more points, but not necessarey give the advantage to Verstappen that some think it will.
That too is not simple as that

[S griffin]

They might need a good back up should Max be in title contention. Which is probably why they are looking at Hulk

[steve nielsen]

Not very good again today, outside of the points and lapped by Max for the 2nd time this season.

I don't think he can survive at this point

[Adam43]

Even Vettel got past him.

[Knowlesy]

They were racing him too hard.

[Nononsensecapeesh]

How Red Bull can continue to keep faith in Albon after today? I do not know. He and Kvyat have had their chance as far as I'm concerned.