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Old 26 May 2018, 17:06 (Ref:3824799)   #316
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Originally Posted by TRspitfirefan View Post
http://world-challenge.com/latest/se...wc-vision-llc/
Interesting development. I wonder what changes are in store.
I'm not surprised. Do wonder what sort of impact it will have I honestly haven't been following SRO's activities close enough to completely understand their business model.
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Old 28 May 2018, 21:06 (Ref:3825332)   #317
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Originally Posted by TheMightyM View Post
I'm not surprised. Do wonder what sort of impact it will have I honestly haven't been following SRO's activities close enough to completely understand their business model.


This will likely signal move towards standard SRO rules-

1hr races
Pit stop
2 drivers
Etc
Etc

So essentially sprint X will become the format of choice I reckon

They will likely also put a lot in to rebuilding the GT3 numbers, as well as bringing the GT4 races in line with Euro GT4 rulesets

Honestly I see this as a well timed move for the series, they have struggled this season for numbers in GT3 and with IMSA looking so strong at the moment they need strength to offer a real alternative
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Old 31 May 2018, 20:19 (Ref:3825921)   #318
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Originally Posted by Bcarr6 View Post
This will likely signal move towards standard SRO rules-

1hr races
Pit stop
2 drivers
Etc
Etc

So essentially sprint X will become the format of choice I reckon

They will likely also put a lot in to rebuilding the GT3 numbers, as well as bringing the GT4 races in line with Euro GT4 rulesets

Honestly I see this as a well timed move for the series, they have struggled this season for numbers in GT3 and with IMSA looking so strong at the moment they need strength to offer a real alternative
A few other things.
- Start with regional championships - This is because they know that the US is huge and they can copy with what they do in Europe. Expect to see a NE, SE, Central and West Coast Series'.

- Then the prize money will go up as compared to the peanuts you get in the US.

- Elimination of TCR/TC and TCA - Comes at no loss because the hard core fans in PWC don't follow those classes anyway (case in point, no info about them at Lime Rock).

- 30 to 40 car fields for GT3 and GT4 - SRO has a track record of this and it will happen in the US too.
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Old 1 Jun 2018, 01:09 (Ref:3825946)   #319
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Originally Posted by jjvincent View Post
A few other things.
- Start with regional championships - This is because they know that the US is huge and they can copy with what they do in Europe. Expect to see a NE, SE, Central and West Coast Series'.

- Then the prize money will go up as compared to the peanuts you get in the US.

- Elimination of TCR/TC and TCA - Comes at no loss because the hard core fans in PWC don't follow those classes anyway (case in point, no info about them at Lime Rock).

- 30 to 40 car fields for GT3 and GT4 - SRO has a track record of this and it will happen in the US too.
How are they going to manage multiple regional series when one national series doesn't work well? And what tracks? I don't think there's enough to warrant a NE series with Lime Rock and Watkins Glen, the Jersey track was terrible. Then what do you add, more club tracks or start making rovals?

SE is even tougher with the tracks you really want owned or controlled by your competition. They won't be able to run Daytona, Sebring or Road Atlanta so you're left with VIR, that "track" outside of New Orleans or the club circuit here outside of Atlanta or a few others.

It just seems like a tall ask to get regional series in a country that just doesn't care about sportscars. And in a series that's already had trouble, somehow SRO is going to magically find money, drivers and tracks? And it seems more than a few of the old PWC TC teams have little interest in GT4 unless they can find a fully funded driver. And a few have seemed to bemoan the loss of the shop built cars that used to be the backbone of WC. To me that was a lot of the series, guys like Davis and his million dollar Mustang in GT against the Caddies and Audis and all the smaller teams building their own cars. Sadly I do concede that day has gone not likely to return any time soon.
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Old 4 Jun 2018, 20:23 (Ref:3826844)   #320
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Originally Posted by broadrun96 View Post
How are they going to manage multiple regional series when one national series doesn't work well? And what tracks? I don't think there's enough to warrant a NE series with Lime Rock and Watkins Glen, the Jersey track was terrible. Then what do you add, more club tracks or start making rovals?

SE is even tougher with the tracks you really want owned or controlled by your competition. They won't be able to run Daytona, Sebring or Road Atlanta so you're left with VIR, that "track" outside of New Orleans or the club circuit here outside of Atlanta or a few others.

It just seems like a tall ask to get regional series in a country that just doesn't care about sportscars. And in a series that's already had trouble, somehow SRO is going to magically find money, drivers and tracks? And it seems more than a few of the old PWC TC teams have little interest in GT4 unless they can find a fully funded driver. And a few have seemed to bemoan the loss of the shop built cars that used to be the backbone of WC. To me that was a lot of the series, guys like Davis and his million dollar Mustang in GT against the Caddies and Audis and all the smaller teams building their own cars. Sadly I do concede that day has gone not likely to return any time soon.


I find it hard to believe that they can't run GT3 and GT4 at every track that SCCA Club or NASA runs at. This is a regional series where you learn the SRO way of racing then try out your hand at the big time when they come to town. It becomes a ladder series like they do in Europe. I know that NJMP might not be what you'd want to see for the big time pro GT3 and GT4 teams at but it's more than suffice for the regional series. Plus some of the tracks that are not on the IMSA or PWC calendar is where most teams test and thus, if they test there, those tracks must be able to handle the speed that GT3 and GT4 cars run at today.

Forget about shop built cars. Shops are not smart enough any more and it doesn't work in the overall plan for the SRO anyway. As we all know, GT3 and GT4 are for major manufacturers that build lots of cars, not the one off shops. Plus it's impossible to BoP those cars because if someone builds a better Camaro or Porsche than the factory and you let them get away with it, the sponsorship money goes away. Nobody wants that.

As for TC, TCR and TCA, they are just a nuisance and the SRO needs to tell them to take a hike or just upgrade to GT3 or GT4. We don't need those low buck teams just lowering the bar of professionalism in the paddock. They can run Trans-Am if they want to.

Plus, isn't PWC running a race at a NASCAR track? That's not supposed to happen according to the intranets.
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Old 4 Jun 2018, 22:41 (Ref:3826869)   #321
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Originally Posted by jjvincent View Post
I find it hard to believe that they can't run GT3 and GT4 at every track that SCCA Club or NASA runs at. This is a regional series where you learn the SRO way of racing then try out your hand at the big time when they come to town. It becomes a ladder series like they do in Europe. I know that NJMP might not be what you'd want to see for the big time pro GT3 and GT4 teams at but it's more than suffice for the regional series. Plus some of the tracks that are not on the IMSA or PWC calendar is where most teams test and thus, if they test there, those tracks must be able to handle the speed that GT3 and GT4 cars run at today.

Forget about shop built cars. Shops are not smart enough any more and it doesn't work in the overall plan for the SRO anyway. As we all know, GT3 and GT4 are for major manufacturers that build lots of cars, not the one off shops. Plus it's impossible to BoP those cars because if someone builds a better Camaro or Porsche than the factory and you let them get away with it, the sponsorship money goes away. Nobody wants that.

As for TC, TCR and TCA, they are just a nuisance and the SRO needs to tell them to take a hike or just upgrade to GT3 or GT4. We don't need those low buck teams just lowering the bar of professionalism in the paddock. They can run Trans-Am if they want to.

Plus, isn't PWC running a race at a NASCAR track? That's not supposed to happen according to the intranets.
First, have you seen the prices of GT3 and even GT4 cars? WAY above what most SCCA and NASA guys are running. The reason why Mazda runs the ads about more racing racing every day is because they are half the field at some events. There aren't many newer cars and I've looked at the entry lists for both SCCA and NASA this season. There are a lot of TA based cars, and touring cars mixed with lots of MX-5s and BMWs. Not exactly a group looking to drop 250k on their car, never mind new costs of GT3s. And many of the tracks they test at are great for that, testing. They are terrible club circuits not built for wheel to wheel action. No one wants to actually race at Atlanta Motorsports (they call themselves a motorsports country club) or Roebling Road (great camera shots but not so great for racing) in high power GT cars.

Shop built cars are what powers most of the SCCA non-MX-5 cup based cars. There's a rule book, show us your car and we'll find you a class to race and rules you have to follow. You're also assuming there's sponsorship opportunities out for this many cars, where? GTD/CTSCC and WC teams can't find sponsors for GT3 and GT4 as it is, now we're adding more regional series with the same cars, same running costs; possible decrease in travel but still have the hotel and food bills whether you're 4 hours or 12 hours away. You're not getting 5 buddies together to wrench on a GT4, and you surely aren't buying parts anywhere but the dealer counter anymore. Those teams and drivers running for fun in both series aren't going to step up because SRO says you have to, they'll just stop racing or go to the local dirt track

And where do you get the idea the TCR teams and cars are somehow lower than GT4? Most of the cars are damn near identical in pricing and factory support so where's the lower professionalism? And most of the US based teams, although I find it in poor taste for an 'affordable' option, have factory backing in some way. Pull the factory cash and I think you'll lose that entire class. Or is it just front wheel drive bothers you but you can't be man enough to actually say it and hide behind blatantly bs claims about teams.

Finally PWC is running at one ISC owned track and they have been running on a long term deal as Watkins Glen is NOT supported by ISC as much as the others in the fold. In fact they, the actual track through the gate without ISC contribution, have paid to run Indy cars and have done all of the Indy promotion work because they are damn close to broke every year. Daytona?? That's not even a starter. We've seen how well the WC guys build a roval so let's not pretend any of the other tracks are even considered. The IMSA managed tracks/lease, Road Atlanta does not have that cash flow at all, they are booked most every weekend and often during the week as well. Sebring is not always available, but testing does happen a great so debatable but it seems IMSA holds the lease there.

And yes, I read a great deal about racing and why things happen the way they do. Your ideas that somehow the European model of regional GT series taking hold in the US just aren't based in reality. There's not even close to the same number of series here running GT cars, 2 IMSA and PWC, as Europe, Blancpain GT, British GT, multiple GT4 series, GT Open, ADAC GT Masters and I'm sure I'm missing a few and then the touring car series (i counted 10 in Europe) as PWC and CTSCC are using similar cars. And the big 2 series, to the average person Indy and NASCAR have a had enough time finding cash so what scraps do you think will fuel a GT revolution through the Americas without Sebring and Daytona as their 12/24 hour races? COTA and McNeil family racing track both have noise curfews so there's limited running at both and a broken up Creventic 24 hour race at COTA. I don't know the rules for Road America and think a true enduro there would sell like candy to kids but there's been some rumbling and anger toward the owners' new event pricing and policies. Listening to most of the teams in IMSA those 2 events are a big draw, yes a huge cost but a big draw for their cash rich owners/drivers.

I'd love it if there was another big camping event, and more GT cars at Road Atlanta but I just can't see it there and the best weekends of the year are taken. I love the track but May-September are right out, not happening unless you HATE your fans. That might be why they run the Drift events in June and August. And just before and just after that time frame are their two big events of the year so there has to be separation.

The best PWC, and on the fence sprint vs enduro GT3 teams, can hope for is a consistent rulebook and penalties with better publicity. But at the rate they're going the tape delayed broadcast on channel 2000 on the specialty sports networks aren't going to sell it to sponsors. Great, they've added satellite radio coverage except last race wasn't on the channel they claimed and I didn't find it. And I wanted to listen, not catching a new fan that way. Get that going, build a good response and you have the ear of a BIG company with big hands in the motorsports pie with Liberty Media. Show you aren't worth it and they'll drop ya like old fish.
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 18:15 (Ref:3826998)   #322
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Mazda runs the ads about more racing racing every day is because they are half the field at some events. There aren't many newer cars.
Speaking of which, I wonder why Toyota / Scion didn't replicate Mazda's program with the GT 86.
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Old 5 Jun 2018, 20:43 (Ref:3827029)   #323
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Speaking of which, I wonder why Toyota / Scion didn't replicate Mazda's program with the GT 86.
I was surpised I haven't seen many Scion or Subaru racing in SCCA or NASA events. I've seen a few on entry lists but fewer than I would have expected but then it is one of the newer cars with the computer systems that may not lend itself to homebuilts and the bigger names in racing have aftermarket parts networks.

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Old 6 Jun 2018, 19:34 (Ref:3827254)   #324
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Racer has an article out by Richard S. James and Marshall Pruett titled "Insight: SRO and the future of Pirelli World Challenge." The quick answer to what impact SRO becoming the majority owner will have on PWC is apparently "very little."
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Old 7 Jun 2018, 16:59 (Ref:3827441)   #325
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We believe that [...] we will be able to propose a platform that motivates American teams and drivers to join or return to GT3

The Pirelli World Challenge is a series that has a substantial number of followers who need to be considered
Those statements are bold.
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Old 13 Jun 2018, 14:28 (Ref:3828910)   #326
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Those statements are bold.
One thing everyone needs to remember is that racing in the US is not like it is in Europe. Using European ideas in the US sounds like a good idea but in the end, does not result in long term success.

One of the main issues in the US comes down to competition. Too much money is spent on all of the various road course based series'. Then too much money is spent on non road course series'. In Europe they don't have the competition of dirt track, drag racing and oval racing. In the US, we do and thus that money is spent elsewhere. As for road racing, contrary to the idea that it's dying, it's actually is thriving quite well but the two big pro series' are not seeing the money. They have flatlined even though there are more and more people running on road courses.

Another main issue is the size of the US. I have documented before about the travel differences and it's not even close. The US requires much more travel and thus, the cost. This is why many teams do only what's in their area. A guy running in SCCA club will put the same amount of miles as a team does for the ADAC Masters.

Then there's the crew. In Europe, you can get crew to work for cheap because most have lots more vacation than they do in the US. In the US, you got to pay a guy more because he takes off work and is not going to get paid from his normal employer. Daytona and Sebring will run through the paid vacation for most crew guys. PWC will get there by the 5th event. I can get a really talented engineer from Germany to work for next to nothing because he will have so much time off that he still gets paid, has healthcare and retirement when he's working for me and I don't have to spend a euro.

In the end, these are things that the SRO cannot change. They are ingrained in our country. I suspect we will see the same thing go on and celebrate over and over again with 500 thumbs up when a new team appears. That will be "success" yet we forget about the one that left which gives us a net gain of zero.
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Old 13 Jun 2018, 14:43 (Ref:3828916)   #327
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I was surpised I haven't seen many Scion or Subaru racing in SCCA or NASA events. I've seen a few on entry lists but fewer than I would have expected but then it is one of the newer cars with the computer systems that may not lend itself to homebuilts and the bigger names in racing have aftermarket parts networks.

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I can tell you why. There's 28 years of Miatas and around 5 for the 86 platform. Just because you make a neat car, it doesn't mean that it'll be on the Miata level in a short period of time. Top it off the 86 owners are not rich like the Porsche ones. If you want to race a recent year Cayman with a PDK, it's easy because everything you need is there and already developed. That because Porsche owners pay, 86 owners do not. Even with Miatas, most are from 1990 - 2000 and were bought for around $1K then turned into a racecar.

People stick with what is popular and cheap.
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Old 16 Jun 2018, 04:09 (Ref:3829820)   #328
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Here is the 40-car entry list for the next two rounds of GT/GTA/GTCup (15 entries) and GTS/GTSA (25 entries) at Road America next weekend. Both classes are racing together for the first time on this the longest track that PWC visits this year!

http://files.world-challenge.com/eve...-EntryList.pdf

Last edited by cbbrit; 16 Jun 2018 at 04:15.
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Old Yesterday, 15:20 (Ref:3831402)   #329
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Here is the 40-car entry list for the next two rounds of GT/GTA/GTCup (15 entries) and GTS/GTSA (25 entries) at Road America next weekend. Both classes are racing together for the first time on this the longest track that PWC visits this year!

http://files.world-challenge.com/eve...-EntryList.pdf
Great to see confirmation of the Flying Lizard Porsche GT3 entry for Andy Wilzoch.
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