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15 Apr 2021, 15:22 (Ref:4046098) | #201 | ||
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[QUOTE=eamonn ledwidge;4046092]
Quote:
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15 Apr 2021, 16:01 (Ref:4046103) | #202 | ||
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All roads lead to Spa. |
15 Apr 2021, 19:52 (Ref:4046148) | #203 | |
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Thanks for all the comments on this. It's interesting to see that the quote comes from one of the Chambers of Commerce (London) that offer Carnets on a commercial basis. I think it is about the only indication that I have seen in print (including all the Government pages that I have perused) that a Carnet is not an appropriate solution if you are towing your own racer, whether it is road-registered or not.
One of the key points that I have taken from various Government advice pages is that if you are "temporarily exporting " your car (eg to race it in Europe), and will subsequently be re-importing it to the UK, in order to qualify for "Returned Goods Relief" on Tax and Duty one of the issues is that you ideally need to be able to show documentary evidence that the car previously has been in the UK. If the car is or has been road-registered in the UK I guess that the V5C effectively achieves this. If it is a non road-registered race car, suitable documentary evidence is a bit more tricky. I think there is no generally acknowledged "owner" or "keeper" or "origin/history" document for race cars in the UK; and I have bought and sold quite a few over the years, as have many others. If you don't have suitable documentation for your "own" racer, and assuming a Carnet isn't the way to go because it is for commercial and/or professional "goods", then a Duplicate List could be a solution. I think a Duplicate List could provide verification that the car had in fact been temporarily exported from the UK, and that it is the same car that is being re-imported. A Duplicate List is in any case also cost-free, unlike a Carnet, so even if a Carnet is a workable solution I for one would much prefer to pass on it. I think an issue about Duplicate lists is that they can work OK for leaving/returning through a UK port, but do not address any issues that you might encounter at the European port, or other Customs borders around Europe if you venture that far. These are dependant on the rules that apply to the country that you are entering/leaving. I think Carnets do address these potential problems (provided the country in question accepts Carnets). There is certainly a lot of confusion for private individuals such as myself who want to take their own race car abroad to compete (at one or more events), and then return it to the UK. The same probably applies to any sports/leisure equipment that can be moved by road/ferry/tunnel: motorbikes, pedal bikes, gliders, canoes, snowmobiles, boats, surfboards...and anyone moving this sort of equipment between the UK and Europe commercially now faces large extra bureaucracy, hassles, and costs relating to many of the points that have been raised in this thread...ie Carnets, Operator Licences, Trailer Registration etc etc. Sigh. |
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15 Apr 2021, 21:13 (Ref:4046155) | #204 | |||
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Balls of steel (knob of butter) They're Asking For Larkins. ( Proper beer) not you're Eurofizz crap. Hace más calor en España. Me han conocido a hablar un montón cojones! Send any cheques and cash to PO box 1 Lagos Nigeria Africa ! |
15 Apr 2021, 22:57 (Ref:4046163) | #205 | ||
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Simon - I reckon 'suitable documentation' would include an HTP issued and validated by MSUK. Still leaves a problem for the impecunious clubbie with a race car that was never homologated or is modified beyond hom spec or simply doesn't justify the expense of an HTP.
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a salary slave no more... |
23 Apr 2021, 05:30 (Ref:4047434) | #206 | ||
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Off for the first Delta trip of the year . I am collecting a Formula Ford from Belgium . I had Covid test at Cobham services yesterday and am now on the train under the sea somewhere . All easy so far and I am looking forward to driving through France and Belgium . Just wish I was going to Spa as well . I will keep you updated as the day goes on . ?
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23 Apr 2021, 06:24 (Ref:4047437) | #207 | |||
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It's currently bright & sunny here in Northern France. Can't speak for Belgium though... You could also take that Alfa back for Richard! |
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23 Apr 2021, 10:26 (Ref:4047478) | #208 | ||
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23 Apr 2021, 12:08 (Ref:4047507) | #209 | ||
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
23 Apr 2021, 14:24 (Ref:4047536) | #210 | ||
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Damn, it was a cunning plan!
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Born in the Midlands, made in the Royal Navy |
23 Apr 2021, 16:40 (Ref:4047558) | #211 | ||
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Proof in the pudding, it was a fair offer.
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Celui qui est parti de rien pour arriver nulle part,n'a de merci a dire a personne.Pour ceux qui vont chercher midi a quatorze heures, la minute de Vérité risque de se faire attendre longtemps. |
23 Apr 2021, 17:18 (Ref:4047568) | #212 | ||
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Proof in the eating. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating"
Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk |
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Midgetman - known as Max Tyler to the world. MaxAttaq! |
23 Apr 2021, 17:22 (Ref:4047570) | #213 | ||
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Well we have made it on to the train somehow . Fair bit of confusion with us and all the French and U K border controls but the old Delta magic worked . Happy days . ?
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23 Apr 2021, 18:26 (Ref:4047586) | #214 | ||
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Celui qui est parti de rien pour arriver nulle part,n'a de merci a dire a personne.Pour ceux qui vont chercher midi a quatorze heures, la minute de Vérité risque de se faire attendre longtemps. |
6 Apr 2023, 16:37 (Ref:4150655) | #215 | |
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Dear all, I have done some work on this and I have sent to Carol Spagg of HMRN version 5 of my report. She is publishing it. I am also in contact and liaising with MS U.K. In summary, no-one needs carnets. At all.
Outward from U.K. to EU to do a race, get C&E1246 form stamped by U.K. customs and drive straight through French Customs. Technically what is happening is that you are claiming Temporary Importation Relief ‘by conduct’ under the sports good exemption. Upon return, drop by U.K. customs to give them the stamped C&E 1246 form (returned goods relief form). Freight carriers do the same except enter ‘temporary importation relief’ when applying for your GMR reference. There is a case for freight not to make a ‘by conduct’ declaration but instead make an oral declaration at the French point of entry with completed Annex 71-01 form. EU people coming to the U.K. for a race, complete INF3 form to present to French customs (equivalent to the UK’s C&E1246 form), and make a ‘by conduct’ declaration when passing U.K. customs ie simply drive straight though with no stopping of forms. Upon return to the EU, present the INF3 form to French customs. For full details, see my paper with important background information and cross references to specific EU Regulations, required forms and HMRC Guidance Notes (which were updated on 10 March 2023 following pressure from us to specifically refer to the Sports Goods category of the Temporary Importation Procedures). This is been tested last year by an HGPCA member with an unregistered single seater race car (ie, not a means of transportation). All worked. Also, I have spoken with U.K. BorderForce and Customs officials. Read my report and feel free to ask questions. |
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6 Apr 2023, 16:44 (Ref:4150659) | #216 | |
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PS. Don’t need the C&E1246 form if your race car is V5’d with the DVLA.
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6 Apr 2023, 16:47 (Ref:4150660) | #217 | ||
The Honourable Mallett
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Excellent info there thank you Peter.
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6 Apr 2023, 16:50 (Ref:4150662) | #218 | |
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PPS. I will be in or around the HGPCA Red Truck tomorrow (Friday) at Donington with a copy of my report V5 plus forms and cross references to Regulations and HMRC Guidance Notes if anyone wants to discuss the subject.
Last edited by Peter H; 6 Apr 2023 at 16:57. Reason: Error |
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7 Apr 2023, 20:08 (Ref:4150801) | #219 | |
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Really helpful information Peter, many thanks!
Simon Davey |
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7 Apr 2023, 20:21 (Ref:4150802) | #220 | ||
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Had lovely chat with Peter . Clever bloke . Not a bad race driver as well . Thank you for your time today ?
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7 Apr 2023, 20:46 (Ref:4150803) | #221 | ||
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I'm not likely to need to use it - but that is really useful information, Peter H, for any aspiring cross-channel racers. Thank you.
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Richard Murtha: You don't stop racing because you are too old, you get old when you stop racing! But its looking increasingly likely that I've stopped.....have to go back to rallying ;) |
8 Apr 2023, 07:06 (Ref:4150813) | #222 | ||
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My old friend Jean Marc is just back from the UK with his car. He's using a carnet ATA, and says the hassle and costs are worth the tranquillity. He often goes the legalistic way.
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10 Apr 2023, 07:37 (Ref:4150922) | #223 | ||
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Another well known french racer reports that for engines and gearboxes he's helped by a customs agent, going to and from of course.
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12 Apr 2023, 16:15 (Ref:4151241) | #224 | |
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Gerard, there is nothing more legalistic than using the Temporary Importation Procedures for sporting goods, as set out in the Regulations (EU Regulations (Commission Delegated Regulation (DA) 2015/2446) under inter alia Articles 212 and 213 (for ‘means of transport’) and Article 219 (for ‘goods intending to be used for sports purposes’)).
ATA Carnets have their own issues associated with them (eg, if have they been incorrectly stamped on the outward journey) which some have fallen foul of. But, each to their own. ATA Carnets ‘work’ (but can be expensive and inflexible over their lifetime) as do the Temporary Importation Procedures (which are free, more flexible and usually involve less interaction with Customs’’ officials). My paper merely highlights the availability of these Procedures which appear to have been completely below the radar for competitors wishing to take their cars overseas for races. Regards Peter |
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12 Apr 2023, 17:10 (Ref:4151244) | #225 | ||
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Peter I was just reporting what my french friends do, hope you dont see any personal criticism or a kind of comparaison like ATA vs another way to go through. As you say, ATM carnets ATA "work" at a cost.
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