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Old 15 Feb 2019, 15:55 (Ref:3884430)   #766
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Jean Claude Juncker earns £24,006 per MONTH, as his basic salary, in addition to which he receives allowances, expenses, and sundry other perks. 10,000, officials earn more per annum than our Prime Minister. It's called 'The Gravy Train', and the EU Parliament building is only open 4/5 days per month. The parliament has a massive shopping mall for their exclusive use, and a fleet of top of the range (mainly German) cars for their use for any purpose they want.

There is much more detail available on just how much the EU costs to run, and how many snouts in the trough, but it seems many people, even plenty here, who seem happy to be forking out in order to keep the Train moving full steam ahead.


Can you think of a better description of madness?
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 15:58 (Ref:3884432)   #767
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Originally Posted by apriliadriver View Post
Peter, Christine Lagarde still harbours hope of a return to politics in France. The Parisian 'great & good', Enarques all, have had the toe-the-line message from Paris to make sure they throw a spanner in the works to make Brexit as hard as possible. They must comply or give up all hope of a return to their political ambitions. They are, in any case, all committed to the Gran Projet. So I am expecting every Airbus exec, IMF exec and any French company that invests in GB to be polishing up their spanners. So tiresome and so predictable. As George Dubya Bush said "The French - always there when they need you".
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Actually I was being a little bit devilish there because she targets anyone she thinks is a soft touch at that particular time. However there is a general consensus that the EU is on financial borrowed time.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 16:28 (Ref:3884441)   #768
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As you wish however I take the opposite view indeed lower taxation is a stimulus for all but it's not easy to explain to people who are cost driven.

As to the reminder of your post you seem to be rather glib about something you find so important thus perhaps by citing some examples where the eU is better for poor people would be good?

Try this: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-e...-idUSKBN1EY1EB

But then again:

https://www.politico.eu/article/here...t-euro-crisis/

Since I'm heavily involve with a EU financed project I can tell you the second report is much closer to the actuality. Frankly I want no part of it.
I've found that time is too short to look for examples and even when you find them people tend to ignore them and don't want to change their opinion.

But here's a list of some items:
roaming charges has been mentioned and is possibly trivial,
workers rights (paid annual leave, maternity leave, sickness rights etc.) which are taken for granted.
Erasmus for education, investment in research/universities etc,
medicines, improvements in healthcare and the environment,
cheaper flights,
healthcare while you are in another eu country,
lower prices for booze,
safety,
food labelling,
EU wide patent & copyright protection,
lack of wars,

Have just found a link which is far more extensive:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...u-ever-done-us

So I find it amusing when people protesting about the EU are stood in front of places that have signs saying this project was funded by the EU, or work for European companies, rely on European products etc.

Looking at the situation from the outside it appears that most people are unaware of any EU positives, which might be related to the govt taking credit for the popular stuff and blaming the EU for the unpopular stuff (that the same govt agreed to).

As for low taxation, the problem is the stuff that tax funds struggles. Living in a country with far higher obvious tax rates you notice that things like the health service work and there is plenty of social housing, not to mention that normal housing is affordable.

As we've said before there are so many aspects to EU membership and life in general that any group of people/countries are going to find different benefits and disadvantages - I can imagine that the financial/legal stuff is extremely complex and annoying but that possibly reflects the skills of the people involved in the sector and all the systems/methods etc. they create to help further their or their customers wealth.

I tend to think that govts should focus on the poorer members of the population since they have far fewer opportunities to improve their lot, whereas the wealthy are far more able to look out for themselves.

Given that globalisation seems to be leading to some companies being more powerful than most countries, it isn't clear what the future holds but a larger group of people will always hold more weight than a smaller one and that could well become ever more important.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 16:50 (Ref:3884443)   #769
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From those writings, almost all of them, I can't see any reason why not leave. You can call me stupid, unaware, weirdo whatever you like to but, and I stand to be corrected of course, you've been asked. You gave your answer. Its leave. So let it be.
In order not to upset anyone may be the first deal could be rated as fair enough and became just unacceptable for you. I guess you have many people saying "leave first and discus later". And sorry if its hard for me to make any difference between politicians, bureaucrats, technocrats and other lobbyists. They all fooked up the whole system we're living in. For this kind of mess, of course the borders are wide opened and we're all far beyond the limits!
I wonder what we'll find here when the Pandora box will be opened.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 16:54 (Ref:3884444)   #770
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Originally Posted by bauble View Post
Jean Claude Juncker earns £24,006 per MONTH, as his basic salary, in addition to which he receives allowances, expenses, and sundry other perks. 10,000, officials earn more per annum than our Prime Minister. It's called 'The Gravy Train', and the EU Parliament building is only open 4/5 days per month. The parliament has a massive shopping mall for their exclusive use, and a fleet of top of the range (mainly German) cars for their use for any purpose they want.

There is much more detail available on just how much the EU costs to run, and how many snouts in the trough, but it seems many people, even plenty here, who seem happy to be forking out in order to keep the Train moving full steam ahead.


Can you think of a better description of madness?
So Boris Johnson gets more than Junker for writing a newspaper column!

The mall I've seen at the European parliament is open to the public and has normal shops in it - you can even go on guided tours or visit open days, none of which have attracted me!

Yes some of these people earn a lot of money but you have to compare like with like, average director's salary in the UK is over 100,000 quid a year which is comparable to the handful of EU director generals.
FTSE top 100 directors average earnings are around 4 million quid a year.

Most govts. and many companies have their own fleets of cars and the EU drivers I've met only drive them on official business, last time I saw an EU president (Prodi) he was waiting for a taxi!
When travelling employees are obliged to use the cheapest option and have pretty meagre travelling expenses compared to company reps.

When you look at the cushy well paid jobs that ex-ministers move into when leaving or getting kicked out of govt. you see that what they earn is peanuts compared to the outside world.
e.g. David Davis (that well known failed negotiator) is getting 60 grand for 20 hours work for JCB (admittedly 20 hours is probably more than he spent in EU negotiations!!).
Blackrock paying George Osborne 650 grand a year is rather good for someone who failed his maths A level and screwed up an economy!

There is an argument that paying MPs much more would attract useful people - those who are any good can earn far more money without having to withstand public scrutiny.
If there had been some decent people running the UK it might not be in the state it's in.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 17:12 (Ref:3884447)   #771
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Originally Posted by PeterMorley View Post
If there had been some decent people running the UK it might not be in the state it's in.
That's about the only thing you and me would agree on so far, oh and the salaries bit as well.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 18:18 (Ref:3884459)   #772
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Originally Posted by bauble View Post
Jean Claude Juncker earns £24,006 per MONTH, as his basic salary, in addition to which he receives allowances, expenses, and sundry other perks. 10,000, officials earn more per annum than our Prime Minister. It's called 'The Gravy Train', and the EU Parliament building is only open 4/5 days per month. The parliament has a massive shopping mall for their exclusive use, and a fleet of top of the range (mainly German) cars for their use for any purpose they want.

There is much more detail available on just how much the EU costs to run, and how many snouts in the trough, but it seems many people, even plenty here, who seem happy to be forking out in order to keep the Train moving full steam ahead.


Can you think of a better description of madness?

I assume that will be the usual tax free deal Bob?


Wine on expenses?
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 18:24 (Ref:3884460)   #773
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Originally Posted by Tim Falce View Post
That's about the only thing you and me would agree on so far, oh and the salaries bit as well.

I often wonder if better people would have appeared (civil service as well as politicians) if there was no EU Tax free gravy train for them to pursue instead.

But then if, as I suspect, the UK parliament is now about as authoritative nationally as a Parish Council is locally, no one with real ambition for power would be inclined to to apply.

After all you can earn a lot more and have a far longer and more reliable (no elections) career in Local Government, the NHS or a University.

Why would anyone moderately competent wish to take a less certain career in politics? Unless they were avid narcissists or control freaks.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 18:33 (Ref:3884462)   #774
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Originally Posted by PeterMorley View Post
So Boris Johnson gets more than Junker for writing a newspaper column!

The mall I've seen at the European parliament is open to the public and has normal shops in it - you can even go on guided tours or visit open days, none of which have attracted me!

Yes some of these people earn a lot of money but you have to compare like with like, average director's salary in the UK is over 100,000 quid a year which is comparable to the handful of EU director generals.
FTSE top 100 directors average earnings are around 4 million quid a year.

Most govts. and many companies have their own fleets of cars and the EU drivers I've met only drive them on official business, last time I saw an EU president (Prodi) he was waiting for a taxi!
When travelling employees are obliged to use the cheapest option and have pretty meagre travelling expenses compared to company reps.

When you look at the cushy well paid jobs that ex-ministers move into when leaving or getting kicked out of govt. you see that what they earn is peanuts compared to the outside world.
e.g. David Davis (that well known failed negotiator) is getting 60 grand for 20 hours work for JCB (admittedly 20 hours is probably more than he spent in EU negotiations!!).
Blackrock paying George Osborne 650 grand a year is rather good for someone who failed his maths A level and screwed up an economy!

There is an argument that paying MPs much more would attract useful people - those who are any good can earn far more money without having to withstand public scrutiny.
If there had been some decent people running the UK it might not be in the state it's in.
You appear to have (deliberately?) overlooked the point that private industry directors actually create something of tangible value whereas EU bureaucrats create nothing of value whatsoever.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 18:48 (Ref:3884465)   #775
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I assume that will be the usual tax free deal Bob?


Wine on expenses?
A very special tax rate applies , Grant, and the list of 'allowances' goes on and on. Peter M suggests he is on an equal with many CEO's, and Captains of Industry, but what does he produce?

I love the videos on UTube of Juncker staggering around drunk as a lord, even while 'on-duty' so to speak, so I guess the wine is free - in more ways than one.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 18:51 (Ref:3884466)   #776
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You appear to have (deliberately?) overlooked the point that private industry directors actually create something of tangible value whereas EU bureaucrats create nothing of value whatsoever.
And in that connection one has to look at the earlier observation about projects "funded" by the EU. It's a bureuacracy not a creator.

Firstly the EU by itself, and so far as I know, does not generate and cash. It collects cash from member states takes a cut to pay itself and then redistributes some of the take back to teh member states. A few get back more than they put in. Others less than they put in - for a number of reasons not the least is that the EU management have taken a cut.

So in some countries the projects "funded" by the EU where probably funded by the country itself but taking into account the admin charge it would have cost more.

In addition the country will have taken that money as an "assistance" to their economy. Because it was available and so added to GDP in some way rather than because it was a worthwhile project. Hence empty roads and unused and even unfinished airports in Spain. Just a couple of examples - there must be many more.

Now they are only doing what "governments" do - but to have 2 National level sets of bureaucrats and politicians using the same pot of tax geld to promote their own vanity projects is hardly likely to be an effective use of available funds. Or rather - available tax take.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 19:05 (Ref:3884469)   #777
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Originally Posted by PeterMorley View Post
..........

But here's a list of some items:
roaming charges has been mentioned and is possibly trivial,
workers rights (paid annual leave, maternity leave, sickness rights etc.) which are taken for granted. We had those before, one can make a case that recent changes have moved the balance too far in the employee's favour.
Erasmus for education, arguably just a jolly abroad and a brainwashing exercise
investment in research/universities etc, not if one is a net giver to the EU, could do more on our own
medicines, improvements in healthcare and the environment,
cheaper flights, how has the EU claimed to do this?
healthcare while you are in another eu country, is the EU really needed to to create/maintain EHIC?
lower prices for booze, rather goes against the aim of improved healthcare
safety, d/k
food labelling, d/k
EU wide patent & copyright protection, saves doing it in each country but hardly earth-shattering
lack of wars, Balkans? Ireland/NI? Turkey/Kurds, Ukraine? Basques? Corsica? Cod? EU ineffective and unecessary with UN and NATO

...........
From a UK standpoint very unconvincing
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 19:35 (Ref:3884473)   #778
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Why would anyone moderately competent wish to take a less certain career in politics? Unless they were avid narcissists or control freaks.

A question that has often puzzled me.......along with why so many of our politicians are so avidly supporting remaining in the EU, the chief objective of which, under "ever-closer union" is to render national governments increasingly irrelevant..........
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 21:09 (Ref:3884491)   #779
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A question that has often puzzled me.......along with why so many of our politicians are so avidly supporting remaining in the EU, the chief objective of which, under "ever-closer union" is to render national governments increasingly irrelevant..........
Perhaps because for the time being they can appear to have responsibility and power without having to have the skills to deploy either of them?

Plus the money is not bad if you factor in pensions and stuff and the opportunity to make 'contacts' for life after politics.

Better in the EU bureaucracies though, especially if you get to a senior grade.
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Old 15 Feb 2019, 21:38 (Ref:3884496)   #780
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I give up. All we've done is rehash the referendum. What can we do in the sunlit uplands?


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