Vinyl in Historic cars....get it out.

[crosshatch]

I would like to get your opinions on one of the rules for Historic Touring cars.
I have little bit of pet hate for one particular rule, whereby, you can't remove the hood lining in these old cars.
Safety apparel, in all classes, has been updated at a sensible rate according to modern technology. Flame retardant everything.
Now here’s the deal, what’s the point of wearing all this you beaut flame retardant clothing and sitting in a car that is on fire and having a vinyl parachute about to drop on your head……see my point? Bloody silly if you ask me and very, very dangerous.
I don’t care about, “That’s how the cars were raced in the era”. The drivers of that era also wore T shirts and scarves.
Get rid of as much vinyl as possible in these cars. That’s my thoughts anyway.

[Uncle Cranker]

As a trackside marshall of 17 odd years I agree totally.(yes very odd in fact.....)

Putting a big fire out is hard enough, without extra (un-needed) fuel, and then there is also the highly toxic fumes given off by the burning material.

This is dangerous to both the Driver & the Safety crews attending to him.

The argument against removing vinyl door trims, hood lining etc in Historic Cars is about as relevant as wearing Tweed jackets with leather patches on the sleeves.

Just because some like them, and they are still in fashion in Historic Racing, doesn't make it right............

[DAVID PATERSON]

I don't like your chances of getting passenger seats and door trims removed, but there is no reasonable argument for retaining hoodlining in Group N Historic Cars. While we're at it, let's get rid of heater boxes.

[storyline]

Would be interesting to see what happens if a car turned up with vinyl removed and the car was denied permission to start. The lagilities and potential court action this could start would be very interesting to see.

Prosecutor to CAMS Safety/Tecnical rep: So, let me get this straight then - the car cannot remove a potentially dangerous substance from the car - one that can not only completely cover the driver in a burning fire blanket but one which is quite capable of poisoning him with the fumes it gives off simply because the rules state the car must 'race as it was originally raced'? Is this correct?

CAMS rep: Yes, but...

Prosecutor: Therefore you are ineffect saying that the safety of the driver is absolutely second to that of ensuring the car races in its original format complete with toxic elements in place and therefore possibly ensuring the driver has no chance, in a fire, of escaping at best with serious injuries, at worst dead?. Your honour - The prosecution rests.

[cornermsport]

Guy's i do understand your idea's but my issue is when does it stop.

The Nc catergory is slowly getting out of control with more and more freedoms. (I still have trouble understanding the freedoms allowed with brake calipers, and lets not go into flairing of guards on GTHO's!!!)

I'm sure there is a hate towards being in the 5th Category, is that the reason of raising the muscle car category.

Should we then look at pulling out the interiors on Group C cars too???

Seeing Nc is halfway there, maybe we should just re log them as Sports Sedan's??? That boosts the category back up and makes all the cars legal!!

[St00ge]

I agree 100%, just one of a few silly rules in Historics, but not much will change while being in the 5th cat...

[storyline]

Safety should NEVER be compromised - even if it means moving a part of the car away from how it was originally raced.

After all - CAMS continually claims that the safety of the driver is paramount - don't they?

[cornermsport]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I don't like your chances of getting passenger seats and door trims removed, but there is no reasonable argument for retaining hoodlining in Group N Historic Cars. While we're at it, let's get rid of heater boxes.

I think from memory, in the early 90's they allowed us to remove floor coverings, but i never did work out the difference of why we could remove one and not the other.

Heater Boxes are another can of worms. I have a Mk 1 GT Cortina which was built in 1980, ran till 1996 (when it met with a wall!) without a heaterbox. I was told that it would have to be fitted with one if i wanted to race again, even though i have magazine articles and evidence that it was a definate option and was not fitted to the car from factory!!!!

There is a process for starting an action to change that rule.

Competitors and Historic Touring Car club members know what to do if they are so inclined. It involves going to your respective car club . . . talking to eligibility office . . . who in turn talks to all the other eligibility officers . . . then a submission is voted on to put to the HEC.

But that is only if they WANT to . . . can't say I have seen too old cars burning at the track lately.

Oh, and you can't puff the guards on a Falcon.

[St00ge]

Originally Posted by cornermsport

The Nc catergory is slowly getting out of control with more and more freedoms. (I still have trouble understanding the freedoms allowed with brake calipers, and lets not go into flairing of guards on GTHO's!!!)

I'm sure there is a hate towards being in the 5th Category, is that the reason of raising the muscle car category.

Brake freedom, is brakes form any production car of the period can be used... I see no problem with this as all cars have alot more horsepower than stock (from the EHs to XYs) and back then the brakes were barely good enough, so in the name of safety why not allow people to use better calipers everyone is allowed to do it.

The Flared guards on a XY is illegal, but rolling of the guards is legal under the rules (but yer how long is a peice of string) one way around this is to introduce a a couple of tyre sizes allowed to be used and brands, less than currently allowed.

I would say most of the Hate is from the sheer lack of understanding that these cars arn't driving around doing regularity runs as the Historic commision think they should. AVESCO wants these guys running with the V8s, all the drivers do, but 5th cat is holding them back with there constant changing of the mind in regards to rules and other political cr@p. Thats why it is just easier to ditch them and do it themself.

[storyline]

White Knight - I haven't seen two cars Liberace themselves on Conrod the way they did last year before; I haven't seen a Formule Ford spin and impact the barrier on the start line at Wakefield Park before either; I haven't seen a Commodore hit from the rear on the start ine at Oran Park, split the fuel tank and catch fire like Paul Morris's before either.

But they have all happened and I am sure we never want to see them again.

If I used the same logic then everyone would be smoking until they managed to get lung cancer - because it hadn't happened to them before.

You surround yourself with a substance that gives off a toxic fume when burnt and you remove it to ensure it never happens.

Asbestos.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by St00ge

I would say most of the Hate is from the sheer lack of understanding that these cars arn't driving around doing regularity runs as the Historic commision think they should. AVESCO wants these guys running with the V8s, all the drivers do, but 5th cat is holding them back with there constant changing of the mind in regards to rules and other political cr@p. Thats why it is just easier to ditch them and do it themself.

The last thing you could accuse the Historic Commision of is changing their minds.

[cornermsport]

Originally Posted by storyline

White Knight - I haven't seen two cars Liberace themselves on Conrod the way they did last year before; I haven't seen a Formule Ford spin and impact the barrier on the start line at Wakefield Park before either; I haven't seen a Commodore hit from the rear on the start ine at Oran Park, split the fuel tank and catch fire like Paul Morris's before either.

But they have all happened and I am sure we never want to see them again.

If I used the same logic then everyone would be smoking until they managed to get lung cancer - because it hadn't happened to them before.

You surround yourself with a substance that gives off a toxic fume when burnt and you remove it to ensure it never happens.

Asbestos.

Everything above is true, i have a good understanding of all OH&S regs with my day to day employment. The thing is do we go down the same lines and cotton wool everything, and "risk asses" every aspect??

Do we all have to fit "Larry bars" in the off chance a wheels coming thru the windscreen??? Do we go to a safer fuel source to reduce flammability??? Do we put speed limiters to reduce accident risk???

They may seem stupid statements, but i have seen what happens in big companies, and if we push it, our sport will go the same way.

[DAVID PATERSON]

3J Improved Production went through the same thing years ago when they were 2E Club Cars. People wanted the hoodlining retained so the cars would look like street cars, not race cars, that was the idea behind the class. Then at a general meeting, one of the stalwarts of the class who had been racing the same car for years stood up and challenged the meeting to tell him what colour his hoodlining was. No one had any idea, simply you can't see the hoodlining when you're outside the car, so why have it?

[DAVID PATERSON]

I have actually seen a Gemini go into the Armco backwards, the boot was crushed, the standard tank burst open and everything was splashed with fuel, including the hoodlining, which then caught fire and landed on the driver. He suffered some burns on his back/shoulders but was otherwise OK.

At the next meeting the scrutineers said they wouldn't ping anyone for removing the hoodlining.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I have actually seen a Gemini go into the Armco backwards, the boot was crushed, the standard tank burst open and everything was splashed with fuel, including the hoodlining, which then caught fire and landed on the driver. He suffered some burns on his back/shoulders but was otherwise OK.

At the next meeting the scrutineers said they wouldn't ping anyone for removing the hoodlining.

Easy there David;

Common sense, Scrutineers, & CAMS in the same sentence.......


I need a Cup of Tea, a Bex & a good lie down.

[storyline]

It's funny in a way - until something like this happens, the 'rule makers' (who obviously know what is best for everyone else) won't bend because 'it isn't in the spirit of the rules' or 'but they never raced like that'.

Unfortunately in todays litigious (sp?) society these same rule makers WILL ultimately be held responsible for anything that goes wrong.

As an example - look at the coroner's outcome from Gregg Hansfords death - he ruled that in all probability one of the causes of his accident was that his tyres were not up to temperature. So - what happens - from that point onwards, Super Tourers (not all front wheel drive cars mind you) were given TWO warm up laps.

But, CAMS in their wisdom, NEVER wrote this into any rules - why not?

[cornermsport]

Originally Posted by St00ge

Brake freedom, is brakes form any production car of the period can be used... I see no problem with this as all cars have alot more horsepower than stock (from the EHs to XYs) and back then the brakes were barely good enough, so in the name of safety why not allow people to use better calipers everyone is allowed to do it.

The Flared guards on a XY is illegal, but rolling of the guards is legal under the rules (but yer how long is a peice of string) one way around this is to introduce a a couple of tyre sizes allowed to be used and brands, less than currently allowed.

I would say most of the Hate is from the sheer lack of understanding that these cars arn't driving around doing regularity runs as the Historic commision think they should. AVESCO wants these guys running with the V8s, all the drivers do, but 5th cat is holding them back with there constant changing of the mind in regards to rules and other political cr@p. Thats why it is just easier to ditch them and do it themself.

The issue i have with the brakes is the change of the rule which eliminated the fact that you required to obtain a brake from the period and long as it was from the same parent company. If you have Lincon 4 spots on a GTHO, no problem, Big US GM 4 spots same deal, but Volvo calipers on Torana's hard to make the linkage. They were the gun brake on mid 70's sports sedans, but wouldn't that now allow you to run Lockheed calipers off an open wheeler from the same period??? The fun factor always was always that they were underbraked, so you have to learn to use them wisely.

I raised the GTHO guards as i was looking at a car last night that is being built and wanted advice on Nc eligability. I was laughing as it was the first time i had looked at a stock GT that had not been pumped!!!! I told him to veiw the guards on the cars on Sunday, and see if they have had their guards "Lipped" The 'Blue Streak" factor has created these problems I think its about time to push the control tyre issue again.

If the breakaway is to comence, i think instead of trying to create a new category, just log your cars as "IPRA" 3J rules, that will open up your freedoms required, then the entry to the series will be for invited IPRA cars of year period and group N cars only. Its a big can of worms, but IPRA rules are still well controlled and suitable to work with.

Originally Posted by cornermsport

If the breakaway is to comence, i think instead of trying to create a new category, just log your cars as "IPRA" 3J rules, that will open up your freedoms required, then the entry to the series will be for invited IPRA cars of year period and group N cars only. Its a big can of worms, but IPRA rules are still well controlled and suitable to work with.

No breakaway is going to happen.

[johnny yuma]

IF IT WAS that lethal untold millions of cars,planes, boats, houses etc
would not be full of vinyl.millions of street cars must have crashed
with vinyl.Perhaps the danger is over-perceived.

[cav]

Forget the breakaway, you are absolutely correct White Knight, it wont happen. And forget about taking out the head lining, keep the cars like they used to be and if the competitors treated the class more like a nostalgia trip rather than a way to be a V8 driver there would be less carnage anyway. The OH&s thing is already out of control lets not get headliners into it as well.

[storyline]

Originally Posted by johnny yuma

IF IT WAS that lethal untold millions of cars,planes, boats, houses etc
would not be full of vinyl.millions of street cars must have crashed
with vinyl.Perhaps the danger is over-perceived.

Maybe a few links will help you decide then (and, btw - when was the last time you saw vinyl used in cars and/or planes? - You haven't for quite a while because it is no longer used)
http://www.ghchealth.com/dangers-of-...-chloride.html
http://www.vinylchloridefyi.com/

One of vinyl chloride's most common uses is in the making of polyvinyl chloride, or PVC. PVC is a part of many products, from pipes to wire coverings.
Vinyl chloride is a toxic chemical compound frequently used in manufacturing. Diverse industries have made use of this highly combustible, colorless gas. Vinyl chloride is also known as chloroethene, chloroethylene, and ethylene monochloride. A known human carcinogen, vinyl chloride can cause liver cancer, angiosarcoma, and other health problems in people who are exposed to it.

[johnny yuma]

quote- BMW 2006 range --"the standard upholstery is BMW's leatherette vinyl".
There seemed to be a lot of vinyl masquerading as leather at the Sydney
motor show.And why is so much vinyl protector sold??

[cornermsport]

Originally Posted by White Knight

No breakaway is going to happen.

Trust me i don't support it either, all i was saying was if all the ego's want to do their own thing, use an existing set of proven rules as opposed to creating another type of bas$%ised rules.

The lap times the top guys were doing at the Mount this year is bordering on crazy. Its getting near old Group A lap times! They don't need to be getting any quicker!!!

[Aarrgh8]

This thread is like listening in to a crossed line.