McLaren have a further four-week wait/McLaren apology - Page 3

Knowlesy · 15 Dec 2007, 14:40 (Ref:2089509)

Well, so be it.

Not saying that it's right, but such are the circumstances.

If it turned out that Ron and Whitmarsh had been ordering the acquisition of Ferrari stuff, then that could not be justified at all. No question. But this is two twonks dragging their respective teams down.

Anyhow, I'm bored of this now. I'm gonna watch the A1 GP.

**Peter Mallett** · 15 Dec 2007, 14:47 (Ref:2089511)

[Ferrari Fans] Yer all a mob of McLaren ********s[/Ferrari Fans]'

[Voice of reason] There's nothing wrong except someone decided to use a sporting code to solve a legal problem[/Voice of reason]

ggreen29 · 16 Dec 2007, 22:47 (Ref:2090152)

Pardon my lateness to this again, but I'm unaccustomed to doing legal reading in the off season in order to keep up with F1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

Even when McLaren admits that they were wrong, they are not wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by deeks6

even when the team finally admit they lied and cheated

McL didn't admit they were wrong, lied or cheated. All they admitted was "We must nonetheless accept that our own investigations into this matter were insufficient..."

There were plenty of significant qualifiers:

"Whilst with great respect to the authors of the report, we do not agree with all of the conclusions that have been drawn..."

"... we accept the central conclusion that some pieces of Ferrari information MAY [my emphasis] have been disclosed...to individuals within McLaren other than Pedro de la Rosa and Fernando Alonso."

Recall that the central conclusion of the FIA report that implemented the penalty was that McL MAY have used IP, therefore they WILL be punished.

"...the inspection has not reached any conclusion that McLaren used Ferrari confidential information on the 2007 or 2008 car..."

"We do, however, accept that the inspection provides SOME support for the conclusion that "a number of McLaren employees... were in unauthorised possession of ... Ferrari technical information"... However, it does not establish that the information in question was used on the 2007 or 2008 cars."

"Toward that end we would like to express our willingness, despite not agreeing with the findings, to enter into discussion with the FIA Technical Department..."

JeremySmith · 16 Dec 2007, 22:55 (Ref:2090156)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

What are the motives behind such a witch hunt? To hurt the second most popular team in F1 history?

I don't buy it. What has happened here is the FIA has lost its patience with McLaren, who have always insisted on "full cooperation", yet continue to withhold information.

It is personal, Mr Mosley can not stand Mr Dennis...

REALIST · 16 Dec 2007, 23:01 (Ref:2090157)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Well, so be it.

Not saying that it's right, but such are the circumstances.

If it turned out that Ron and Whitmarsh had been ordering the acquisition of Ferrari stuff, then that could not be justified at all. No question. But this is two twonks dragging their respective teams down.

Anyhow, I'm bored of this now. I'm gonna watch the A1 GP.

Good idea. How's it go? "When you're in a hole, stop digging"?

Marbot · 17 Dec 2007, 00:37 (Ref:2090209)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It is personal, Mr Mosley can not stand Mr Dennis...

I think that it's safe to say that neither one is on the others Christmas card list.

It should be considered,however,that Mr Mosley didn't come to these decisions by himself.There are another 26 members sitting on the council and we have to assume that they are all free minded individuals,as much as it might pain us to do that.

ggreen29 · 17 Dec 2007, 00:51 (Ref:2090216)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gt_R

If any heads should roll, it should be that of Mike, Pedro and the other Senior Engineer (whose statements were just packs of lies).

Which statements were lies? So far, even with the new report, there's no evidence presented that anyone other than Pedro was regularly fishing for Ferrari info. There's no evidence that others even knew it existed.

Gt_R · 17 Dec 2007, 02:10 (Ref:2090243)

I don't know how much more "evidence" do people really need to be convinced!

When the news first appeared, up to the first hearing, Mclaren insisted they had done an internal investigation, and ascertain only Mike had the information and denied anybody beyond him knowing.

When Alonso's expose told that the drivers knew, and that considering that drivers can't possibly work on the car alone, Mclaren admitted that drivers beside Mike knows. They tried to put as an evidence some signatures that claim nobody else beyond saw, and some then argued that the initial investigation failed to find anything because drivers were not part of the "employees" under investigation.

Then, they demanded FIA to finish the check ASAP. FIA did a check and found dubious components, and found out that Mclaren suspended some activities because of FIA's investigation, with the plan to resume them when the heat is off. And the inconsistency of statements were pretty clear. And why do more people's involvement get discovered, when they weren't suppose to exist if accordance to Mclaren's statement?

This leads to Mclaren's apology. But it is an apology that much misdeed, earlier denied, were subsequently discovered.

I've heard the line "It's impossible Mclaren do it, anyone who has known the sports will know it is one with integrity". But while Ron, for one may have proven that integrity or principle, one has to be aware that when people now say "Mclaren cheated", its rather directed at the few man within Mclaren that led to the current woes. It's not personally attacking the integrity of Ron, or some sections of the team who are really innocent. But are we to use the good of a team principle to offset the "bad" within, just like how some condemn the whole FIA procedures simply because Max isnt loved?

But those culprits had twisted their words and faked innocence. If it's not lies, then let's call that loyalty.

Red · 17 Dec 2007, 10:28 (Ref:2090409)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggreen29

Which statements were lies? So far, even with the new report, there's no evidence presented that anyone other than Pedro was regularly fishing for Ferrari info. There's no evidence that others even knew it existed.

Huh? Have you actually read the document? Here, have fun. You can skip directly to page 20, "Conclusions", but the entire document makes a good reading..

Knowlesy · 17 Dec 2007, 18:42 (Ref:2090704)

Quote:

Originally Posted by REALIST

Good idea. How's it go? "When you're in a hole, stop digging"?

Err...

Teretonga · 17 Dec 2007, 20:13 (Ref:2090768)

ralf fan:

Quote:

Are you telling me that had Mclaren copied the entire Ferrari car it would just be an unfortunate consequence.

But that didn't happen so we deal with what did happen.
Two rogue employees from two organisations deal in information in a competitive environment.
That information is used by some of the people at one organisation to uncover facts about the other orgasnisations cometitive machinery (but none of tha actual parts are replicated and used).
They get disqualified for the entire year and fined $100 million but when another of their employees leaves and transfers information to a third team he claims he took it simply for personal use even though the team acknowledged they used and diseminated the information in their organisation they are let off from any penalty because it had no bearing on the outcome of the championship....
Hold on...ferrari beat McLaren so suffered no loss either.....?

It doesn't compute. The decision to let Renault off is wrong, if the decision to penalise McLaren is right.... or vice versa.... The decision to let Renault off is right...if the decision to penalise Mclaren is wrong...

Marbot · 18 Dec 2007, 19:29 (Ref:2091467)

McLaren hearing cancelled.

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/...ing-cancelled/

Super Hans · 18 Dec 2007, 19:31 (Ref:2091470)

Hallelujah. It's over.

Well, except for the no doubt lengthy civil proceedings against McLaren.

Marbot · 18 Dec 2007, 19:33 (Ref:2091472)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Hallelujah. It's over.

Well, except for the no doubt lengthy civil proceedings against McLaren.

And not forgetting that Renault aren't out of the smelly stuff yet!

It won't be too long before we find out that Mackereth has been sending Alonso e-mails!

brands · 18 Dec 2007, 19:55 (Ref:2091479)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Hans

Hallelujah. It's over.

Well, except for the no doubt lengthy civil proceedings against McLaren.

I thought the only civil proceedings still being threatened are against Coulghan ?

Teretonga · 18 Dec 2007, 20:04 (Ref:2091489)

Maybe not over....
If the stpney fle ends up at Force India and the team completes a car that reminds one of a Ferrari they may suddenly be competitive...
And will Fisichella finally get to drive a Ferrari F1 car ....but under another name...
Or will he team up with Mike G (who has a Renault background) to out Renault witha Renault powered by Ferrari under a different name...
But there are no customer cars....
Or aren't there.....
Are they all just customer cars, flogging each otehers technology.
The silly thng about it is that the teams outside the immediate mess can then begin programmes on aspects of their competitors cars because some of the information that was secret is in the public domain, but the actual culprits cannot because they would then be accused of making use of the information...
No wonder so much of the public thinks the F1 is just silly and unworthy of their attention...

JohnSSC · 18 Dec 2007, 23:08 (Ref:2091638)

According to Adam Cooper's (of Racer Magazine) article on the Speed TV site (sorry, but posting links is something that escapes me), McLaren admitted that 8 days after receiving the info from Stepney, Coughlan called a meeting to discuss the use of a double-fill master cylinder for the rear brakes. The article overall is an interesting read.

Once again, McLaren's thorough internal investigation fails to turn up what they were actually doing. One of the engineers actually notes in an email that they cannot implement this system until after the FIA "agro" (his word) is over.

Interesting how many times they can shoot themselves in the foot. They now find themselves yet again apologizing for not surfacing the info sooner...

Marbot · 19 Dec 2007, 00:24 (Ref:2091679)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Interesting how many times they can shoot themselves in the foot.

It remains to be seen if Renault can do the same.

Strange that McLaren themselves said in the hearing that they wouldn't want Renault to be fined in the same way that they were.And they weren't,well,at least not yet.

The end result of all this is of course that McLaren's integrity is shot to pieces and they'll probably have a slightly 'iffy' car for 2008.

JohnSSC · 19 Dec 2007, 10:59 (Ref:2091853)

According to Cooper's article, they have agreed to suspend development in three particular areas of their car based on the information from Ferrari that was disseminated more extensively than previously known. The rear brake system is one, CO2 in the tyres is the other and old age prevents me from remembering the third...

I get the impression that if Mc had just come clean early-on as Renault appears to have done things would have gone easier on them.

mjstallard · 19 Dec 2007, 11:55 (Ref:2091887)

CO2 in the tyres seems an odd one to suspend to me - surely everyone else will be doing this if they weren't already? It's not like coming up with a new rear braking system in terms of difficulty of design and implementation..

Marbot · 19 Dec 2007, 11:59 (Ref:2091891)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The rear brake system is one, CO2 in the tyres is the other and old age prevents me from remembering the third...

There was a "quick shift" system.But the areas are not limited to those.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64438

JohnSSC · 20 Dec 2007, 10:55 (Ref:2092556)

Thank you for the supplemental memory martyn!

Alan Raine · 20 Dec 2007, 11:46 (Ref:2092602)

Nice to see Ferrari are happy winners

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/64451

Get over it

Red · 20 Dec 2007, 12:06 (Ref:2092615)

Why? Of course, when you catch someone breaking in your house you give him a warm hug and pat on the back, no?

Knowlesy · 20 Dec 2007, 12:25 (Ref:2092629)

Bless them. The poor babies feel hard done by.

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