[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Of course but if the ALMS shrinks even more they also have to protect their interests in terms of the 12hr race. There's no reason for that event to go down as well if the series is already tanking..

At one point they might have to pull an emergency stop and give Sebring & the PLM to the WEC to at least have those prestigious races on their tracks.

If Panoz gives Sebring to the WEC, instead of the ALMS, it has happened because the ALMS or a replacement doesn't exist anymore.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by AGD

Sometimes series succeed for a while despite of their incompetence. For a while is the key term. USAC could line up tons of cars at Indy even with their massive, massive incompetence. CART was ok for a while. The ALMS and Grand-Am have had their moments. Ultimately, however, incompetence does not pay off.

I consider the ACO to be the most competent organizer of sports car races, partly because the competition is completely horrible.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

Sometimes series succeed for a while despite of their incompetence. For a while is the key term. USAC could line up tons of cars at Indy even with their massive, massive incompetence. CART was ok for a while. The ALMS and Grand-Am have had their moments. Ultimately, however, incompetence does not pay off.

I understand the point your making, I simply don't understand why everything from the cars on the grid to the hot dogs being cold is blamed on the ACO, all I do know is the criticism comes from a narrow section of fans.

While I understand certain concerns, the ACO need to have an eye on each continent, emerging markets and global rivals, not because they've got ideas above their station, because the time is right to revive the history and tradition of the World Sportscar Championship.

Sebring would slot into that elite group of races with ease, but there are new and old candidates too.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

I understand the point your making, I simply don't understand why everything from the cars on the grid to the hot dogs being cold is blamed on the ACO, all I do know is the criticism comes from a narrow section of fans.

Well, who else do you want to get the blame? We could blame the ALMS for being pansies, but the discussion isn't about the ALMS, it's about the ACO. As for a narrow section of fans, I think most people here can see that the ACO is taking a greedy approach and is trying to seize total power. Some people may have an "oh well" reaction to that, but stupid business decisions don't occur in a vacuum and it will eventually make everyone who isn't wearing rose-colored glasses upset.

This has nothing to do with there being a world championship or not. If the ACO wants a new series, fine. But why grab money (especially blood money) at the expense of fans who you know could be fans of the new series? That's the kind of stuff F1 and the IRL does and it's the same thing Champ Car did. F1 does it because they know the braindead herd will still follow the wolf no matter how far it gets shoved up their you know what. Champ Car did it and the IRL does it because they're desperate and they live off silly desperation heaves. A new series does not have a brainwashed herd (well, not much of one at least) nor should a new series be desperate when they have golden opportunities right in front of them. So, ultimately, what's the justification? There's no long term justification to be in Bahrain (even Bernie struggles to come up with a justification) and no justification to cheese off at least one large potential fan base.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by JAG

I simply don't understand, all I do know is the criticism comes from a narrow section of fans.

I think you are dismissive of any and all criticism, and those who make such comments, without even weighing the merits. From where I am sitting it is a very narrow section of fans who are fully supporting of the ACO and their moves. Varying levels of criticism is nearly universal, from constant tinkering of the rules, BHF, BHH, to unequal performance, to poor scheduling, to complete mismanagement. When you choose to look at something with rose coloured glasses, it is all you are going to see.

This whole structure they've built is poorly thought out, and bound to self destruct. It's almost laughable. Slow moving train wreck...

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I think you are dismissive of any and all criticism, and those who make such comments, without even weighing the merits. From where I am sitting it is a very narrow section of fans who are fully supporting of the ACO and their moves. Varying levels of criticism is nearly universal, from constant tinkering of the rules, BHF, BHH, to unequal performance, to poor scheduling, to complete mismanagement. When you choose to look at something with rose coloured glasses, it is all you are going to see.

This whole structure they've built is poorly thought out, and bound to self destruct. It's almost laughable. Slow moving train wreck...

Sorry but that's nonsense. The ACO clearly has followed a set game plan for the past few years. First the LMS that was turned into the ILMC and then the WEC... it makes perfect sense.

I really don't see where this negativity is coming from, everything looks like the WEC is off to an awesome start with a great entry list for the first year.

I don't see the mismanagement or the train wreck.. those are attributes that other series and promotors deserve.

Sports car racing is absolutely booming right now and the lion share of credit for that goes to the ACO.

[gustavobamba]

When will the LOLA, present the 2012 version of is LMP 1 Version??

[The Badger]

Wasnt there supposed to be some big breaking news today , something about a new GT team stepping up to proto , released today , the 2nd of Jan .

RaceAlliance ?

[The Badger]

I suspect the WEC was always the long term goal .

Years were spent coaxing teams to come and join the LMS/ALMS/ILMC ..... now with a decent selection to choose from various championships , the WEC is a go .

I think the ACO have done a decent job . If the ALMS cant get their **** together , thats their issue .

We now have a true world class championship , why the complaining . Isnt it what we all wanted , for so long ?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I think the ACO have done a decent job . If the ALMS cant get their **** together , thats their issue .

We now have a true world class championship , why the complaining . Isnt it what we all wanted , for so long ?

100% agree. I think there's a blame-game going on, some people are convinced that the ACO is somehow to blame for the state the ALMS is in.

Is it the ACO's fault that the American economy is in the crapper? No. Is it the ACO's fault that the ALMS isn't able to negotiate a proper TV deal? No.

Those are local problems that have nothing to do with international sports car racing, the ACO have done their homework. In just eight years, they have first launched a successful European sports car series that has now spun off a true world championship.

And all that from the rubble that was the end of the FIA SCC, when prototype racing in Europe (aside from Le Mans) was basically dead.

[The Badger]

The ALMS has bent , twisted and done what they think is right for their series , still their finding it hard to get decent grids but , as far as I am concerned , next year is looking better than this year , except for the doom sayers .

Some teams changed class , some teams are gone , some teams are new ..... isnt this the way it always goes ?

The whole point of the ALMS/ELMS and WEC is that teams can compete on a national level or step it up and go international with the big boys . Excellant idea . Remember before Don Panoz , differant championships , cars wernt eligable for other championships ..... I think they have done a great job . Of course its not perfect ..... tell me something that is ?

I think the ACO should be lamented for getting this far , and not lambasted at every opportunity .

One other point ..... just look at the various motorsport championships in America , and how their managed ..... is that supposed to inspire us ?

I will leave it at that .

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

One other point ..... just look at the various motorsport championships in America , and how their managed ..... is that supposed to inspire us ?

I will leave it at that .

That's the whole point. The ACO is being run in a way similar to how American road racing series have been run in recent times. You can talk about the WEC's car count, but so what? There were a few years after the Indycar split where there were, what, like 40-50 full-time Indycar teams in the two series. In some ways, that was pretty damn epic. Did that mean that both series (or even just one of them) were being run competently? Obviously not. We've seen and continue to see the end result. I would think that sports car fans would be especially cognizant of the fact that today's situation is hardly a guarantee of tomorrow's situation.

Some people want to justify the WEC's covetous attitude on the basis of the ALMS being quite barren now. Well, the ALMS turning into crap makes the WEC's tactics even more puzzling. Many ALMS fans aren't being satisfied by the ALMS at the moment. If another series came along and offered the American fans a better show, they would be interested in follow that. That could have been a possibility for growth there for the WEC, but instead the WEC wants to take a dump on American fans. The American fans know when they are getting screwed and they aren't going to put up with it. Just look at Indycar grandstands and TV ratings to see how that works. The WEC brand of stupidity isn't limited to America though. It will have an impact elsewhere. Stupid decisions never occur in a vacuum.

Oh, and justifying stupidity by saying that the WEC is less stupid than the ALMS isn't the answer. Stupid is stupid regardless of how that stupidity compares to others. It's also not about there being a world championship or not. It does not matter if it's a world championship or the championship of France, it has to be run wisely and strategically. Given that it is a world championship, ****ing off a large number of potential fans in one part of the world in order to grab a bag of blood money isn't wise and strategic thinking.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Acid09

100% agree. I think there's a blame-game going on, some people are convinced that the ACO is somehow to blame for the state the ALMS is in.

I have no idea where this is coming from, but it keeps getting repeated. Sure, the ACO hasn't done the ALMS, or ELMS any favours, but that isn't what is to blame for the current state of the ALMS, and hasn't been stated.

I can see many people pointing to next year, and thinking everything is wonderful. To draw a parallel, this is like people suggesting that stocks aren't worth owning, because the market isn't doing well right now. No thoughts given to how it got there, what catalysts are out there to change things, or how actions will change the course of things.

Sure, the WEC should be good for a couple of years, but the whole format is going to leave sportscar racing in a mess at some point. It wasn't necessary, and lack management acumen. The right thing to do was easy to see, and basically would have achieved the same thing. This had the chance to be very good, but they screwed it up. That some people can't see that for now, fair enough... sometimes decent grids in the moment are good enough. Just as the ALMS looked great in 07', 08'.. it was easy to see they were actually in trouble, and making the wrong decisions. Just as the stock markets and economies were in trouble in 07' and early 08' were easy to see...

It will take some time, but this is going to fold up like a cheap deck of cards at some point, leaving things in disarray, that will take years to recover from.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AGD

but instead the WEC wants to take a dump on American fans. The American fans know when they are getting screwed and they aren't going to put up with it

Fine , then let them come up with their own series , if they can

I agree , its not nice to get screwed , but the ACO are looking after #1 first , and that is their 24 hour race , and you cant blame them for that . They did get screwed by the Fia in 1992 , and havent forgotten that , 29 entries with 19 finishers .

If America does come up with their own series , which they have tried to do to some effect , with respect to differing regulations from the original rules , then you will see less American teams doing the 24 hours of Le Mans , cuz the cars wont be eligable I fear .

My idea , is we all should be working together to make sportscars truely international , and not national only . And as far as the ACO goes , they have tried , failed in some ways but also that is hardly their fault as they dont control the finances of the world .

Its also the only proto championship thats worth watching , and we should be grateful that we have this and from where im looking , it looks rosy , with no glass's !!!

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Sure, the WEC should be good for a couple of years, but the whole format is going to leave sportscar racing in a mess at some point. It wasn't necessary, and lack management acumen. The right thing to do was easy to see, and basically would have achieved the same thing. This had the chance to be very good, but they screwed it up. That some people can't see that for now, fair enough... sometimes decent grids in the moment are good enough. Just as the ALMS looked great in 07', 08'.. it was easy to see they were actually in trouble, and making the wrong decisions. Just as the stock markets and economies were in trouble in 07' and early 08' were easy to see...

It will take some time, but this is going to fold up like a cheap deck of cards at some point, leaving things in disarray, that will take years to recover from.

No it won't, you`re just assuming that it will fail because other series have failed before. I see absolutely no basis or proof for that and you can't really name any management errors but the Bahrain-situation either.

Sports car racing had a working world championship for decades until Ecclestone ruined it. Saying that a world championship will somehow automatically mess things up has no basis.

And it's not necessary? Of course it is, right now sports car racing is the only major road racing discipline without a world championship. It's good that that's acceptable to you but it's certainly not acceptable to most people.

You can tell that there's a demand to be met by how the WEC announcement was met with excitement from teams, fans and manufacturers. If nobody needs a world championship then somebody should tell all those people...

I really don't understand your point of view at all. You seem convinced that it will fail just because... There's absolutely nothing that suggests that this championship can't be a success. Two of the manufacturers involved are being active in the sport for years now, lots of new ones are lining up. Things couldn't be brighter right now but somehow you can't enjoy it because you`re afraid *something* will happen... it's paranoia if you ask me.

What exactly would have been the right thing to do exactly? I can't recall you explaining that once apart from the "It should be LMP1 only" idea...which is horrible to be honest. The last thing this championship needs is to start half-assed.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

If America does come up with their own series , which they have tried to do to some effect , with respect to differing regulations from the original rules , then you will see less American teams doing the 24 hours of Le Mans , cuz the cars wont be eligable I fear .

My idea , is we all should be working together to make sportscars truely international , and not national only . And as far as the ACO goes , they have tried , failed in some ways but also that is hardly their fault as they dont control the finances of the world .

Its also the only proto championship thats worth watching , and we should be grateful that we have this and from where im looking , it looks rosy , with no glass's !!!

If there is a sports car renaissance in North America, it will probably come with a domestic formula. It might be loosely based on ACO regulations, but American fans aren't going to put up with ACO-style ugly and slow prototypes anymore than they do with DPs. That's ignoring the ACO's politics too. Maybe they can come in and put bigger engines in the Lolas and such without the Big Honkin' accessories. Of course, big-time domestic race(s) need to be part of the domestic formula. There's no reason why their should not be a premier 24 hour enduro here if we can support one. Of course, all this talk is pie in the sky. I don't see this happening any time soon.

As for the WEC, it may provide for the best Le Mans-style prototype racing in 2012. That's not really saying much though, is it? The hybrid stuff is certainly a storyline. I have to consider all the factors though and I'm not sure if the WEC, ALMS, and ELMS provide enough positives for me to want to continue following the sport at a high level. We'll see. I'm undecided at the moment. Each series has their own set of problems. Some are independent problems, some are interlinked.

Originally Posted by Acid09

What exactly would have been the right thing to do exactly? I can't recall you explaining that once apart from the "It should be LMP1 only" idea...which is horrible to be honest. The last thing this championship needs is to start half-assed.

There's still time for this to change, but at the moment it's looking like the WEC is going to be a mostly prototype series whether it wants to be or not. Regardless, the P1s are going to get all the attention.

[JAG]

This isn't about the ALMS, it's about having a global platform befiting the sport, one it had from 1953-1992, and one it needs today in order to retain manufactuers, sponsors and improve it's media profile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_S...p#1953_to_1961

Sportscar racing's greatest era's were prior to 1998, we've come close since, but there hasn't been the platform to sustain and grow the sport further. NA is one piece of the puzzle, but equal partners with Asia and emerging markets, Europe also needs to adapt with the ELMS taking up a new role and fewer WEC rounds than we're accustomed to.

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by JAG

This isn't about the ALMS, it's about having a global platform befiting the sport, one it had from 1953-1992, and one it needs today in order to retain manufactuers, sponsors and improve it's media profile................
NA is one piece of the puzzle, but equal partners with Asia and emerging markets.......

Well, I'm glad that's all sorted out then.
Ninety pages in, over 1300 posts, and the WEC initial season is yet to get underway.

[Articus]

To reflect on some of the recent post. As much as I want to enjoy the WEC for the near future its still quite scary to imagine what happens next. John Dagy's had a great little online chat session yesterday and he said Peugeot was scaling back its sportscar programme next year. (Now there developing a S2000 car too). I read from Sam Collins site that (rumour) R18 is the last of the line from Audi? Who knows, just a rumour. As much as i dont want to think about it. WEC has made the game alot more expensive. The Arrival of Toyota is certainly going to make cost rise as they will probably spend as much as any other manufacturer.

I can almost taste it. It feels as though the R18 and the 908 are the last we will see from Audi and Peugeot. They may run the cars for the next 4-5 years but then what? Audi has built so an absurd number of cars(R10,R15,R15+,R15++,R18,R18(2012?) within a short time span relatively speaking. It's really suspicious.

Dagy's chatted that Peugeot (parent company) cut 10% of its workforce.
And then there the Euro devaluing.

I dont really know what to make of this. I wish that Motorsports teams had endless budgets.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by JAG

This isn't about the ALMS, it's about having a global platform befiting the sport, one it had from 1953-1992, and one it needs today in order to retain manufactuers, sponsors and improve it's media profile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_S...p#1953_to_1961

What is the point of this statement? That just because a world championship is restarting after a two decade break, it gives the ACO full right to act like greedy idiots? In whose mind does that make sense amongst those who are thinking logically and not emotionally?

Sportscar racing's greatest era's were prior to 1998, we've come close since, but there hasn't been the platform to sustain and grow the sport further. NA is one piece of the puzzle, but equal partners with Asia and emerging markets, Europe also needs to adapt with the ELMS taking up a new role and fewer WEC rounds than we're accustomed to.

Equal partners? Ha. Haha. Hahaha! The ALMS and Petit were pretty good ideas in that it helped build the profile of IMSA, the ACO, Road Atlanta, and Le Mans. It also helped bridge two different but similar fanbases. Apparently, the ACO would like to burn down the bridge and come in and steal Sebring. Why? For what purpose? Just because they think they can? Just because Bahrain is offering a sack of blood money? Is it even that? Maybe Bahraini camels and the foreign laborers whose passports have been stolen by the government give good BJs, but I would not know anything about that.

Originally Posted by Articus

I dont really know what to make of this. I wish that Motorsports teams had endless budgets.

It would be nice, but you can't follow this kind of racing and not expect to ride the rollercoaster of highs and lows. It's just the way things go. You can only hope that the rollercoster car does not go too fast and derail itself from the track and crash into the Ali Baba ride.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Articus

I can almost taste it. It feels as though the R18 and the 908 are the last we will see from Audi and Peugeot. They may run the cars for the next 4-5 years but then what?

The current LMP1 cars only have 2 years of life left (2012 and 2013) because a new rule book will be introduced in 2014.

Originally Posted by Articus

Dagy's chatted that Peugeot (parent company) cut 10% of its workforce.
And then there the Euro devaluing.

The financial crisis in Europe is particularly bad for Peugeot. For Audi the weak euro may even be positive because they export a lot (China and US).

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by AGD

Equal partners? Ha. Haha. Hahaha! The ALMS and Petit were pretty good ideas in that it helped build the profile of IMSA, the ACO, Road Atlanta, and Le Mans. It also helped bridge two different but similar fanbases. Apparently, the ACO would like to burn down the bridge and come in and steal Sebring. Why? For what purpose? Just because they think they can? Just because Bahrain is offering a sack of blood money? Is it even that? Maybe Bahraini camels and the foreign laborers whose passports have been stolen by the government give good BJs, but I would not know anything about that.

This is exactly what I mean. The opposition on here comes mostly from American fans who feel intimated by the ACO and somehow blame them for the problems of American sports car racing.

The ALMS build the profile of Le Mans? Where? In the US maybe! In Europe the series was barely visible and had little effect on the promotion of Le Mans.

I still have to hear anything about the horrible management errors that are setting this series up to fail etc.

In the end, we it always goes back to the Bahrain/PLM issue, that's the reason you people despise the WEC because you apparently feel snubbed by it.

Which, in my book, isn't really a basis for a sensible discussion. Like I said, Germany doesn't have a WEC round either but that's no reason for me to not want this series to be a success.

[Félix]

From my POV, WEC will have less than 10 P1s this year. Still split in 2 sub-classes. I can only think of 5 certain full-season entries. Looks very 1992 to me.

The difference is that the lower classes are "healthy" this time. Lots of cars... very few pro teams who are there to win (instead of pleasing rich amateurs). They could race in historics, but they must prefer the "competition" found in modern racing and the glory that comes with it. In the end, it's about ego more than about sport. Keep adding sub-classes/sub-championships and more egos will be pleased.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AGD

What is the point of this statement? That just because a world championship is restarting after a two decade break, it gives the ACO full right to act like greedy idiots? In whose mind does that make sense amongst those who are thinking logically and not emotionally?

If you want to look at things logically, it's GA that is picking apart the ALMS step by step under everyones nose. The ALMS of 2009 onwards bares little resemblence to the forthcoming WEC, PLM being in or out isn't a deciding factor, and the future of Sebring and joint races is in the hands of the ALMS.

John Dagy's had a great little online chat session yesterday and he said Peugeot was scaling back its sportscar programme next year. (Now there developing a S2000 car too).

The S2000 is an update of their current IRC model, a car used by importers and privateers. The big budgets in PSA go to Peugeot's Le Mans and Citroen's WRC programs, when Loebs contract is up in two years time Citroen are considering competing either in the WRC and Dakar, or just the latter. They aren't pulling out of motorsport, just as PEugeot has had a continued presence over the past twenty five years in series like the WRC, sportscars, F1, touring cars and Dakar.

Dagy's chatted that Peugeot (parent company) cut 10% of its workforce.
And then there the Euro devaluing.

They are making 6,000 voluntary reduncies in France but are investing in new factories and marketing in areas like Brazil and China. The European market is saturated,
emerging markets it's hoped will make up the shortfall and more, it's why all the major series have scheduled events in these places and it becomes clear why Peugeot wasn't interested racing in the likes of Spain or Portugal with the LMS.

From my POV, WEC will have less than 10 P1s this year. Still split in 2 sub-classes. I can only think of 5 certain full-season entries. Looks very 1992 to me.

Ten P1's is more than the ALMS and LMS have mustered combined in recent years, neither of which had factory teams, confirmed future entrants are Toyota and Porsche, with Honda and Nissan strongly rumoured.

But sub classes shouldn't be dismissed, in the case of the GTE field that's a production option for manufactuers, something the Group C WSC never established, the P2 field is a great class in itself, but also development base for teams who can step upto P1, and constructors to sell their chassis/engines.

The last point is Group C never benefited from a sportscar scene spanning club, national and regional racing.

[Félix]

Originally Posted by JAG

Ten P1's is more than the ALMS and LMS have mustered combined in recent years, neither of which had factory teams, confirmed future entrants are Toyota and Porsche, with Honda and Nissan strongly rumoured.

But sub classes shouldn't be dismissed, in the case of the GTE field that's a production option for manufactuers, something the Group C WSC never established, the P2 field is a great class in itself, but also development base for teams who can step upto P1, and constructors to sell their chassis/engines.

The last point is Group C never benefited from a sportscar scene spanning club, national and regional racing.

I never said classes were bad. Having GT and protos makes the sport definetly more sound than it was at the end of Group C. What I think is wrong is all the sub-classes. LMP Petrol, Privateer Cup, LMP2, LMPC, GT1-2-3-4, GTE, GT Am, GTC, GT3 Pro, GT3 Am, GT3 Pro-Am. When you think about it, it's the best way to have 12 different teams on the podium at the end of the race with a field of only 10 entrants. That way the rich guys who pay for it all can brag about placing well in "their class" at the end of the day thus making it look a little less like glorified club racing.

Oh and Nissan and Honda had projects on track for 1993. We know where that ended up. Porsche is coming back, but that wouldn't be the first time they would line up wins with little real opposition and help from their ACO friends in the rulebook department. Remember, we're fans of RACING.