Who was better: Brock or Richards?

[SSbaby]

Peter Brock or Jim Richards?

I'm looking for a consensus on the better driver during their peak.

A reason for the choice is also sought. That would make this thread all the more interesting?

[Pro Racer]

ballbreaker of a question both were brrilliant (even that is an understatment) both had great qualities and did many outstanding drives, in terms of form cards Brock had the most wins on the mountain Richo had the most starts, you could bounce this type of stuff from their whole carrer, so from my perspective as a massive fan of both drivers i can't split them, but proberly the nitty gritty stats man can.

i vote Unsure:both great driver.

[Uncle Cranker]

Great thread.

My vote is for Jum, simply for his versatility, and ability in such a wide range of very different vehicles.

No one can challenge Brockie for being the best at the mountain, but for mine, Jim is the best.

[MosquitoByte]

Good as he was, Brock cannot truly be called the King of The Mountain, Richards at least won it in cars he was entered in from the word go. He is also a far more versatile driver and, more importantly, had enough sense to know when to quit. He was also more of a gentleman on and off track and (I know I'm going to get flamed for this) he didn't listen to his own publicity machine.

I know that some of this is outside the purview of the question but so what, sue me.


End

[Senna05]

I voted for PB, but man, what a question!!!

I think there's a few periods you have to look at. PB and Richo seem to have peaked at differing periods, and for differing lengths.

Brock was absolutely untouchable 77-85 for mine. Yes, he didn't have the ATCC results, but I think back to his return to the factory in 78 - He took that junker of an SLR5000 and beat the field at Sandown. Granted he had some of the best pieces of machinery, but still made even his team mates seem ordinary.

Richo seems to have peaked from 84 to the early to mid 90's. The BMW arguably was "good", but not as fast as other bits of machinery. He did some great development work on Godzilla, and who can forget him making a mockery of some of NASCAR's stars in Japan in a demonstration run? 2nd in an old lumina - not bad!

A good reference point, albeit somewhat redundant in that Richo was just ending what could be his peak, and Brock was winding down, would be the 1996 run in the Volvo. Brock was taking in some somewhat mediocre results, while Jim stepped in and took out the Bathurst 1000 support races. I believe this to be the last time the two were in the same car.

Unarguably, both were fantastic till their retirements. If we were to disregard their one off's in the main series in comebacks, Brock came out of his last stint in the lead with the fastest lap, and Richo's last serious run he walked off the podium with Mark Skaife as a winner at Bathurst. Pretty good for some "old geezers".

[Pro Racer]

Originally Posted by MosquitoByte

Good as he was, Brock cannot truly be called the King of The Mountain, Richards at least won it in cars he was entered in from the word go.

well from memory they would be even with only 2 more starts to Richo making him better at Bathurst, if he didn't swap cars in 83 and 87 and if the Texaco Sierra's wern't disqualified for illegal bodywork, but in them days brock was not breaking the rules from my knowledge, and the Texaco Sierra's did have illegal bodywork and were rightfully disquallified, si Brock for me is King of the mountain with Jimmy very very closely behind, and as i said before over their whole carer i can't pick which one probably due to my massive liking of both these blokes on and off the track.

[pete55]

There career paths were a bit different. I wouldn't like to nominate one as they were both good.

[agosling]

Jim was and remains a far more complete driver than Brock.

If it comes down to personality as well, then I would put Jim even further ahead.

[SSbaby]

I recall the first race of the inaugural Group A TCS in 1985 at Sandown, when the track was 3.9km in length. Brock debuted his VK Commodore in Mobil colours. Jim Richards was in his highly fancied JPS BMW 635i (and for those who have trouble remembering, DJ debuted his Green Mustang).

It was a fantastic race. While Brock's VK racer won the race, it should not have won that race. The Commodore's homologated race weight was 1400kg by virtue of it's engine capacity. The 5044cc Commodore V8 car was officially rated at only 308bhp and had a measly 4 speeds. Meanwhile, Richard's car was listed at 1185kg and developed around 285bhp (3.5L 6 cyl) and had a 5 spd gearbox.

On a hot day, Brock built up a lead of around 3 sec before Richards began to reel Brock in. Brock's tyres had definitely given off their best. What astounded me during that race was that although Richards was out braking Brock, it was Brock who braked later than Richards. This was so obvious at the end of Sandown's pit straight. Brock ended up winning at the end by a couple of seconds as Richards oversteered, exiting from the back straight. It was a race that Brock should NOT have won given his car disadvantage. It was the only race of the year that Brock won that year but he could have had more wins had he not had rocker failures.

Anyway, Jim Richards ended up winning the ch/ship that year. His car cleaned up. It was a beautifully balanced machine and Jim knew how to get the best from it. I reckon 1985 was the year when Jim served notice that he was among the best, most talented drivers around. Although, Brock was considered the best driver at the time, his most successful years were well and truly past him. Still showed glimpses of brilliance but wins were few and far between. Meanwhile, Richards continued to win ch/ships in his M3 (he later joined Brock's Mobil-BMW team when Frank Gardner sold his team to Brock - I can't remember exactly but I think JR was slightly quicker than Brock during that season where the BMWs were winless) and take unlikely wins in his Nissan Skyline against the almost unbeatable Sierras.

Brock's 'decline' coincided with Richard's rise. If I had to pick, I'd say Brock was the better, more gifted, driver. When Brock had a competitive car under him he would hardly be sighted by the field, such was his speed. He also raced fair and rarely ever scratched his car. He never used to crash in his prime. He also never ever called the fans a##holes unlike some drivers... he was always willing to sign autographs. A real ambassador for the sport.

Both excellent drivers. I love them both. It's a tough call but for me it's the late, great Peter Brock.

[agosling]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

He also never ever called the fans a##holes unlike some drivers... he was always willing to sign autographs. A real ambassador for the sport.

The a##ehole comment is one of my favourites, I loved the fact that he had the b*lls to stand up to a crowd that were being just that, sadly we don't see that sort of thing anymore...

I will always rate Jim higher, both as a driver and as a humanbeing.

[smokinJ]

both legends but i picked Brocky
hard choice

[greenracer]

both are excellent tarmac drivers but brock showed how he could win on various surfaces, the around OZ rally, rallycross and few off road rallys. brock also dappled with openwheelers with some success.So it is Brock for me.

[Muznik]

Tuff one to split.

I went Brock but was probably influenced by heart more than head.

Both top notch drivers with their numerous Bathurst wins, ATCC & other titles.
(Brock - Redex, Rally. Jim - Targas)

I think Jim was a smooth complete driver but for grapping a car, wringing its neck to get the best out of it without breaking it = Brock.

A comment in Icons of Australian Sport: Peter Brock (from Phil Brock i think?) about how many times the car broke putting it on the trailer after a race win summed up how far Peter knew he could push a car.

Both awesome drivers though !

[Wood-duck]

How do you seperate...both very versatile, 'Jum' Winning in everything from Porsches to Nascars and Auscars, as well as his Targa stranglehold. Peter was the same, Redex trials & Rallycrossing to Bathursts, Le Mans and Spa.

At their peak, in equal equipment, both nearly inseperable, even in Wet conditions...it was rare to see either man spin, let alone crash or break the car and both fair sports, that wouldnt punt off to win.

Off the track, certainly both characters and each had their own unique persona and a legion of fans in Australia and New Zealand.

Together, one of the greatest driving combinations in Australian Racing History. Both true legends of the sport.

[db120176]

Jim for sure. Brock regularly had the biggest budget, and the best cars in the ATCC. Jim only got these for small windows in his career

[johnny yuma]

As drivers impossible to pick.In fact if you put sedan driving Brock,Richards,Skaife,Perkins,D.Johnson,Moffat,Grice,Geoghegan,Bartlett and a couple of current lads ,all in their prime in identical cars and raced them 5 heats,the results would be all over the place I'd bet.

As persons of integrity...let he who has never sinned cast the first stone,but Jum's pack of rissoles was priceless.

[Mickcals]

Both drivers are great, but i went with Jim Richards.

Mainly because he managed to win Bathurst in Group C, Group A and V8 Supercars. Also he won more ATCC championships than Brock.

But with saying that Brock was a naturally gifted driver that nobody can beat when he is in the zone

[TSR]

I picked Jim just cause he drove anything and won in it, as prevoiusly said here he won in Group C,A and supertaxis.


Brock was great and specially at the Mount but his versitility was not that to match Jim.

Great thread topic.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

I recall the first race of the inaugural Group A TCS in 1985 at Sandown, when the track was 3.9km in length. Brock debuted his VK Commodore in Mobil colours. Jim Richards was in his highly fancied JPS BMW 635i (and for those who have trouble remembering, DJ debuted his Green Mustang).

It was a fantastic race. While Brock's VK racer won the race, it should not have won that race. The Commodore's homologated race weight was 1400kg by virtue of it's engine capacity. The 5044cc Commodore V8 car was officially rated at only 308bhp and had a measly 4 speeds. Meanwhile, Richard's car was listed at 1185kg and developed around 285bhp (3.5L 6 cyl) and had a 5 spd gearbox.

On a hot day, Brock built up a lead of around 3 sec before Richards began to reel Brock in. Brock's tyres had definitely given off their best. What astounded me during that race was that although Richards was out braking Brock, it was Brock who braked later than Richards. This was so obvious at the end of Sandown's pit straight. Brock ended up winning at the end by a couple of seconds as Richards oversteered, exiting from the back straight. It was a race that Brock should NOT have won given his car disadvantage. It was the only race of the year that Brock won that year but he could have had more wins had he not had rocker failures.

Bending the truth about Sandown there abit!!

Brock scored pole by virtue of the fact he was one of the very few cars not running round on tyre rations (this affected the likes of JPS & DJR, there was a strike or something. As it was, at Rd 1 at Winton a few weeks earlier, JPS had to give Crichton tyre's which were hardly of the racing variety, while Richards made do with what racing slicks they had), Peter just kept bolting on fresh tyres until he set a quick enough time.

In the race, Richards got caught up in the first corner pile-up, putting him 10 or so seconds off Brock from the start. Richards came back through the field, and was on Brocks bumper starting the last lap, before having a half-lose exiting Torana on the last lap.

It was actually a race Brock SHOULD have won, considering he was the only front-runner who had a trouble free race (DJ spun off whilst in second).

I'm not saying who was better than who, just that that Sandown race isn't a good example for the pro-Brock side.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by racer69

In the race, Richards got caught up in the first corner pile-up, putting him 10 or so seconds off Brock from the start. Richards came back through the field, and was on Brocks bumper starting the last lap, before having a half-lose exiting Torana on the last lap.

It was actually a race Brock SHOULD have won, considering he was the only front-runner who had a trouble free race (DJ spun off whilst in second).

I'm not saying who was better than who, just that that Sandown race isn't a good example for the pro-Brock side.

You misunderstand. I'm comparing the different driving styles in such vastly different cars. There is no way the VK was anywhere near as competitive as the JPS BMW or Robbie Francevic's Volvo or even DJ's Mustang. Brock was the latest of the late breakers while JR in the JPS BMW was always better than most cars under brakes... even if JR braked earlier than most of them.

In fact, I believe you are stretching the truth. There is no way Richards was 10s behind Brock. The gap was never more than 3-4s (albeit I am relying on childhood memory). I reckon you're mistaking JR for DJ who speared off the circuit at the end of pit straight later in the race.

I will stand corrected if you can provide proof of the lead deficit. PM me and I will retract my statement if you can provide the video!

PS That 3.9km circuit was not V8 friendly. Those esses before Dandenong corner were definitely hard on tyres. Again, Brock should NOT have won, that hot day!!!

[pete55]

Originally Posted by TSR

I picked Jim just cause he drove anything and won in it, as prevoiusly said here he won in Group C,A and supertaxis.

Maybe you should read up on Peter Brock a bit. It's obvious you don't have much of an idea what he did in his career.

[TSR]

Originally Posted by pete55

Maybe you should read up on Peter Brock a bit. It's obvious you don't have much of an idea what he did in his career.

I do know what the King drove over the years pete55, but to me Jim won in nearly everything he drove.

[pete55]

And Brock didn't ??????

[TSR]

Pete it does all come down to personal preference doesn't.

[A9X05]

A pretty hard one to choose in a way as both were great at any one time! I have to choose Brock only because I have been a fan of his forever, and I suppose that tips him in favour from me!
No doubt that Jum was versatile, and he drove a lot of different cars! For the doubters well Brocky did drive a lot of different cars also, Its just they probably drove different cars at the same period, which makes it seem lopsided!
To say that Brocky wasnt versatile, well Brocky drove Rallycross, Rallys, Targas, Touring cars, Auscars, Open Wheelers (briefly) Sports sedans, Hillclimbs, 24 HOUR Races overseas at different times and in different cars!
Jum drove most of the same but throw in Speedway,and Trucks??,which Brocky didnt drive!
Both were versatile, and drove anything with 4 wheels and most of the time they were winners!