|
||||||||||||
|
||||||||||||
30 Mar 2010, 06:31 (Ref:2663229) | #1 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2002
Posts: 3,664
|
"4 wheels off" - discussion
Picking up a point from the MSVR 27/28 March thread, I think it's worthy of discussion that the Blue Book now clarifies exactly what is track and what isn't and makes it easier for penalties to be applied to drivers who consistently go outside "the track".
The new wording is: 14.5. Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt: (a) the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not, and; (b) a driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track. (c) Should a car leave the track for any reason and without prejudice to (d) below, the driver may rejoin. However, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage. (d) Repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of control over the car (such as leaving the track) will be reported to the Clerk of Course and may entail the imposition of penalties up to and including the exclusion of any driver concerned. I know there has been feeling that this was something that Clerks didn't often act on but with the new wording it should be easier for action to be taken as the wording is clearer. Thoughts?? |
|
|
30 Mar 2010, 07:40 (Ref:2663262) | #2 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 2,938
|
Just wondering whether it stipulates how many times a driver leaves the track before a report is made. I can also see a lot of discussions taking place, with the Clerk, as to whether it was deliberate or an act of avoidence.
On the whole I think it's a good thing, but there are certain posts where the "Post Chief" is going to be busy ( bottom of Graham Hill Bend at Brands, Copse at Silverstone, Sear Out at Snetterton etc, etc.) |
||
__________________
My Auntie has been ill or so long we now call her, "I can't believe she's not better". |
30 Mar 2010, 07:44 (Ref:2663263) | #3 | |
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 481
|
This one of my pet hates (along with drivers on the roads that don't use the flashing orange things on each corner of their vehicle!)
I raised this with Dale Wells at this year's Thruxton training day. He stated that for BARC meetings, unless briefed otherwise, 4 wheels are to be noted and reported if it happens 3 times in a session. This is the stance I will take with all clubs unless an obvious advantage is gained. Good luck to the Post Chief on Sear if a club requests every incident reported! I think we all know that some drivers take advantage of this and will push the envelope for one hot lap in qualifying knowing that as they probably won't be reported as it will be their single 'offence' in the eyes of each Post Chief. This was not a dig at all drivers and those that it would apply too probably don't read this forum! Whilst I have said that this is one of my pet hates I am not going to lose any sleep over this one. It does not have a direct impact on the safety of marshals and i will report what I see as requested by the respective Clerks and let them deal with any penalties etc. |
|
|
30 Mar 2010, 08:43 (Ref:2663288) | #4 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,359
|
As far as I'm concerned the new wording in the Blue Book doesn't really change anything - it's just codifying existing custom & practice.
As for clerks taking action, I've never seen that as a problem. Last edited by Dave Brand; 30 Mar 2010 at 08:48. |
||
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person. |
30 Mar 2010, 09:56 (Ref:2663337) | #5 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 874
|
I recall a meeting last summer (Clios or similar?) where it was requested that every instance of 4 wheels off during qualifying was reported as that lap time would be struck out - sounded excellent in theory.
After the first lap I moved down to assist PC collecting numbers (Copse exit) and the majority of the field went on his list very quickly, by the time he'd phoned them in I'd got another long list! After another lap or two the normal racing line was for the whole convoy to all go well over the white lines and the pen & paper were smoking. In such a case, what options are open to the Clerk? If the whole pack are "at it" then you can't really bin every qualifying time for breaches, nor can you penalise by docking places on the grid - they'd all be starting last. The sad reality in that event is that if there was an odd driver who tried to behave, he'd lose all the advantage and probably come last - therefore he's obliged / motivated to join the others in cheating. It might be incredibly disruptive, but if the lot of them can't behave why not throw the red out and bring all of them up to the Clerk to be read their fortune? Can't behave, then can't go out to play! Practicalities also come into reporting - if each PC allows 3 strikes before reporting, then potentially a driver could rattle up dozens of breaches spread around the entire circuit and get away with the lot of it. Conversely, I'd had to see it becoming tactics for a driver to be deliberately pushed wide to get him into trouble - punish the cause, not the effect. At meetings where we all share the same radio channel, I'd be very concerned if the emergency channel was clogged up with continual infringement reports. Bottom line seems to me that even with a good (firm but fair) Clerk, much depends on the sort of drivers that the event attracts - no need to start a new thread where we nominate particular "favourites" !! |
||
__________________
David (plus Chrissy, if she's not working) |
30 Mar 2010, 10:03 (Ref:2663341) | #6 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 767
|
wonder if it will apply to TOCA meetings as they seem to be bad offenders
we are very fortunate at knockhill as all of our clerks are very firm but fair, although I have heard drivers having to put an icepack on their ears after recieving a rollicking |
||
__________________
knockhill marshal and proud opinions are my own and not those of any organisation I may be involved with |
30 Mar 2010, 10:26 (Ref:2663353) | #7 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
The regs seem good and clear.
What is missing will be what has always been missing from some meetings:
Also the action taken needs to be both severe and proportionate. By severe I mean something which alters driver behaviour. In some (very few) cases, severe words may work. In most cases points on the licence (applied regularly!) will work. In others perhaps loss of all times or their best times might really hurt. So lap 1 infractions incur a black/white flag and a mandatory talking to afterwards. Subsequent infraction is a black flag and further action. Tough but if you really want to change behaviour, tough is what is needed. Jim |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
30 Mar 2010, 10:34 (Ref:2663360) | #8 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,045
|
Offs
All fair and dandy - but is it always easy to see who has four wheels off - say at Sears where we are a long way from the track? Especially if the car is going quickly and there is a pack. I am no observer so I am just wondering how easy it is to pick up such things for you guys?
Currently (last season really) in our series, everyone went wide at Sears, so no advantage gained by anyone I guess. How does it/will it work if everyone is doing it? |
||
|
30 Mar 2010, 10:45 (Ref:2663368) | #9 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
We need perhaps to consider why it might be desirable to stop excursions. Here are some considerations:
Jim |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
30 Mar 2010, 10:49 (Ref:2663373) | #10 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 874
|
Quote:
How about telling drivers briefing that carpet tacks have been scattered beyond the white line at several locations & they're welcome to explore if they're really curious while we're at it, how about a couple of the floppy markers being made of steel |
|||
__________________
David (plus Chrissy, if she's not working) |
30 Mar 2010, 11:05 (Ref:2663381) | #11 | ||
Pie On 'ere
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,650
|
A related question. Or should I say "Relevant"!
If the rule of writing a report for everything phoned in (and I know it's a rule) was fully applied in all cases of FWO, even on one report per race, then shall I bring a qualified secretary to the meeting, otherwise I'll spend 99% of my time writing and 1% Observing!! |
||
__________________
Why is there no such thing as cat-flavored dog food? |
30 Mar 2010, 11:16 (Ref:2663387) | #12 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 673
|
I'm aware of a few Clerks who operate at Silverstone who ask for reports on each instance and take action on the third report, no matter where round the circuit it comes from. I'd hope this is fairly common practice but I don't always hear what the policies being applied are.
|
||
|
30 Mar 2010, 11:37 (Ref:2663408) | #13 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,045
|
Quote:
We'll get Nina to drive inside the lines and hopefully everyone else will be Disqualified which means she'll win - cool LOL |
|||
|
30 Mar 2010, 11:39 (Ref:2663411) | #14 | |||
Racer
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 246
|
4 wheels off!
Quote:
After that We had a very clean race! |
|||
|
30 Mar 2010, 11:45 (Ref:2663415) | #15 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 767
|
Quote:
as for the observers, perhaps we should start recruiting pretty young ladies as PA's so that they can do the reports |
|||
__________________
knockhill marshal and proud opinions are my own and not those of any organisation I may be involved with |
30 Mar 2010, 12:01 (Ref:2663427) | #16 | |||||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,753
|
Thanks for starting this thread Piglet.
And to me Jim Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If a driver goes 4 wheels off of his own volition, then a B&W flag, subsequent infrigements a Black flag and loss of best lap time which effectively ruins his qually or race. Can't think that there would be many repeat performances from said driver. I hadn't realised the amount of writing required and agree that blocking radio traffic is a problem. Is there an alternative (better) means of communicating these infringments? |
|||||
__________________
If, as Freddie Mercury claimed, fat bottomed girls make the rocking world go round, isn't it about time that Croydon received some recognition for its contribution to astrophysics? |
30 Mar 2010, 12:08 (Ref:2663432) | #17 | ||
Race Official
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 12,454
|
Technically every time you go FWO on a corner with a tarmac run-off you're gaining an advantage, since grass/gravel/walls would have slowed you down.
I'd love there to be a safe parking place on or near each example where you have to stop before being allowed to rejoin. There is, but you don't want to get Stoowert and me started on that hobby-horse. I'd have to ban myself for trolling! |
||
__________________
Bill Bryson: It is no longer permitted to be stupid and slow. You must choose one or the other. |
30 Mar 2010, 12:27 (Ref:2663444) | #18 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 5,968
|
This, of course, applied to the 750MC event at Snetterton three weeks ago. A DSO was in place at Sear to look for 'four wheels off', and the Clerk reported to me that there was an improvement in standards in respect of this after the lunch time briefing.
Certainly at Sear, a sensible and pragmatic approach was taken - essentially that using the extra tarmac on the exit of the corner might be acceptable, but the rougher surface was not. The basis of this is that use of that part of the circuit has not only become accepted practice, but is actually instilled in drivers as part of their tuition at that circuit. |
||
|
30 Mar 2010, 12:43 (Ref:2663462) | #19 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 905
|
There's one way to stop them using the tarmac at Sears, dig it up and put a gravel trap right up to the track like padock hill at Brands.
|
||
__________________
Been there, done that, got the avatar (Just a night out with The Lads!) “Beer is not the answer........Beer is the question .........The answer is yes.” |
30 Mar 2010, 12:47 (Ref:2663466) | #20 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
|
I can never understand although forced to do it myself to try and keep up, that any wheels at all are allowed over the kerbs, why should it just be if all four are then its an offence. If you are allowed to ride the kerbs as it seems you can these days then one has to ask just why are they there as stated by the previous poster? I am sure this has become the norm only in recent years with guys preparing cars to ride the kerbs better. Stop the lot I say that way everyone would know where they stood.
|
||
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
30 Mar 2010, 13:09 (Ref:2663481) | #21 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,020
|
More pot holes would also do the trick. I was flagging on Sear-in, at a meeting last year, and I saw one guy go well off there. He found a big hole somewhere at the end of the tarmac, and I can still remember the horrible thunk! sound as he found it, and also watching him get perhaps 1 or 2 hundred yards up the straight before he pulled off with knackered suspension!
|
||
__________________
"Sometimes, I just want to tell them 'it's not a race!'" - Guinness2702 |
30 Mar 2010, 13:21 (Ref:2663488) | #22 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,699
|
Also if it was an offence to stick any wheels on the kerbs just maybe it would stop the desperate dive up the inside tactic which seems so often to end in grief and broken cars.
|
||
__________________
You can't polish a turd but you sure can sprinkle it with glitter! |
30 Mar 2010, 13:26 (Ref:2663493) | #23 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 3,364
|
Yes, the hole on the exit from Old Hall at Oulton used to have that effect.
JIm |
||
__________________
Life is not safe, just choose where you want to take the risks. |
30 Mar 2010, 13:30 (Ref:2663494) | #24 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,425
|
I was at Sear out for the above mentioned 750 MC meeting and it was easier to list the cars that didn't get all four wheels off than those who did! But after the DSO was on post & the drivers were warned, things did improve and those who did repeatedly use all the run of were punished accordingly. There was one driver who, after spinning on the green flag lap, stormed back through the field to lead, using the 'illegal' run off every lap. He got the worst punishment of all though, (to add to his wrist slapping in race control) when his suspension collapsed on the last corner of the last lap!
|
||
__________________
I used to be with it, until they changed what it is. Now what I'm with is no longer it. |
30 Mar 2010, 15:04 (Ref:2663563) | #25 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 970
|
In SCCA club racing, "4 wheels off" is a little more leniently defined (ie. tarmac good, grass/gravel/other side of curbing bad). We also have a special comm call for shortcuts, which are defined as gaining time or distance on a paved runoff that leads back to the track, such as a straight-through possibility in a chicane. The general opinion is that a true four wheels off will not result in an advantage but a shortcut will. The calls are made as they occur, and shortcuts in a qually or race loses the competitor either that lap or a defined amount of time. But Control still wants to know even if it's practice -- maybe someone's "discovered" a new piece of paving or a new line that should really be coned off, or discussed during drivers' meetings. Or maybe it's an indication that the driver shouldn't be out there playing in traffic.
My experience has been that race control generally keeps track of which cars have done what, and the stewards will request that car be given a furled black after three incidents (offs, spins, whatever) anywhere on the track. It's pretty easy to see by looking at the log since the car numbers run sequentially by incident down the left of the page, and when I've been the logger I've often murmured, "That's three.." on receiving the third call. Stewards seem inordinately interested in those murmurings, I've found! As long as the calls are kept short and sweet, eg. "Control, 2, car 4-5 drive off and on, right" this should not be too difficult to implement at any track without clogging the radio. After all, we in the Colonies do it now and it works. Just my 2 cents keke |
||
__________________
******************** CART Volunteer Course Observer Program: Commitment, Dedication, Loyalty. RIP 2003 ******************** |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
MSA "Wheels" July Issue | Mark Mitchell | Marshals Forum | 3 | 2 Jul 2003 21:53 |