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Old 28 Feb 2014, 16:04 (Ref:3373235)   #121
Mogger
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Mogger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have received two invitations to renew HTPs for my two race cars. I have emailed Mr Duncan (technical@msauk.org) to say "No Thanks" much along the lines of the Motorsport article.

You maybe interested that my FIVA card to do the MM cost £90-£115 and lasts 10 years. HTP papers cost £405-£930 and last 5 years and in truth are only needed for LM and Spa.

Who mentioned profiteering???

The chap that does the FIVA cards is also one of the chaps that does the HTP inspection!! How does that work??

The 'old' HTPs will remain with my cars and as the spec hasn't changed / can't change will be there at some time in the future for the new owner to fork out money to register his name against. The notion that renewing HTPs protects your investment is nonsense. The current HTPs show that the car is compliant so once on record, are current forever.....that is, unless you change the spec....but then it shouldn't have had HTPs in the first place!!

Rant over.
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Old 28 Feb 2014, 16:16 (Ref:3373241)   #122
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As a postscrip, I see a photograph is required to be taken at the point of the FIA sticker is affixed to the car by the inspector, to prevent Unscruperlous owners from having two or more identical cars, as if anyone would go to that trouble?
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Old 28 Feb 2014, 17:36 (Ref:3373276)   #123
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Originally Posted by p261brm View Post
As a postscrip, I see a photograph is required to be taken at the point of the FIA sticker is affixed to the car by the inspector, to prevent Unscruperlous owners from having two or more identical cars, as if anyone would go to that trouble?
Now there's a thought. Bit like transponders, just have one and move from car to car! Although have shown papers on many occasions can't remember the hologram & barcode ever being scrutinised......

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Old 28 Feb 2014, 20:13 (Ref:3373317)   #124
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p261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridp261brm should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Now there's a thought. Bit like transponders, just have one and move from car to car! Although have shown papers on many occasions can't remember the hologram & barcode ever being scrutinised......

My usual tounge in cheek response Mike, to some of the money making schemes dreamed up over the years and not only in motor sport, car parking being a real gem of an idea, one car I was involved with for some time never had the I D sticker fitted and never once was it questioned, from Silverstone through the rest of Europe. Of course cars are developed during their life, usually a couple of years at most, then the 'barn' historic racing has given an immense number a new lease of life, the so called 'Martini' cars two bites of the cherry, the 70's the 80's thundersports etc, now revived again by the HSCC series, cars as back in the 70's most with the updates that took place in the 80's still fitted, in particular reference to brakes, engines and suspension, but HTP's were issued with these mods in place, now it would appear, the 80's mods removed, new papers issued, with the resulting expense at a time when the folding is still a little scarce. Race series organisers should lay down the rules, as most do already, and most race on mainland Europe and organise the events, the scrutes check for infringment of the various rules, then confine HTP's, FIA etc to be re-filed, inder B, for BIN.
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Old 1 Mar 2014, 04:23 (Ref:3373459)   #125
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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A quick glance at the Lister Knobbly thread answers that question. And that is a big, fat nothing!

It is apparent that if you can afford £250k, you can buy a brand new, never raced, rallied or even used for shopping trips, car that comes with a set of crisp, shiny HTP papers.

Am I being pedantic in asking what the Historic in HTP stands for or means?


I did Spa three years running without showing my papers.Its a non FIA event after all.!
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Old 1 Mar 2014, 11:27 (Ref:3373576)   #126
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I did Spa three years running without showing my papers.Its a non FIA event after all.!
EXACTLY Terence, then why are they needed?
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Old 1 Mar 2014, 13:06 (Ref:3373606)   #127
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terence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridterence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Possibly because the organisers think the FIA label a makes the event sound more up market.I very much doubt that if most cars were presented without these worthless three sheets of A4 the event would be would be cancelled.
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Old 1 Mar 2014, 14:35 (Ref:3373637)   #128
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Tel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTel 911S should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
For rally cars running to MSA Historic rules there is only the requirement for a Historic Rally Vehicle Identity Form [ HRVIF ], which lasts for 10 years & only costs £ 83 [ I think ] .This has also been documentation enough for when we were doing a Belgian [ Omloop Van Vlaanderen ] event that was part of the British championship .

But if you wanted to do other European FIA Historic Championship events you had to have a HTP.

But with the cost of the HTP , & only lasting 5 years , perhaps the MSA could bring in a similar type of form for Historic Race cars , which might help competitors & keep the entries numbers from dropping off a lot .

Or am I only dreaming ?
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Old 1 Mar 2014, 15:25 (Ref:3373656)   #129
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HTP Garage Tax

I received my FIA Garage Tax letter, despite my current HTP being issued in August 2012 , and therefore valid until 2017....so despite the hard sell ( by the way I did not see a BOG-OFF offer anywhere) I am not sure that I am inclined to go through the whole process again this year for the "fun" of it.

I note that Cobras and GT40s have a special rate ( perhaps something to do with more rigorous inspection??)
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Old 14 Apr 2014, 00:01 (Ref:3392121)   #130
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I'm in need of some more advice! As some of you may know I'm still working on my 1967 Lotus Europa restoring it and whilst I'm doing that I'm paying attention to the homologation forms and Appendix K to go racing in the future.

I'm in some discussions with a fellow Europa owner and racer about some of the modifications that are or aren't allowed by Appendix K.

Lotus Europa's were homologated in 1970, so this would put us in period G2. They were homologated as Group 3 & 4. My thinking is that we have to look at Appendix J of 1969 to make out the groups (because in 1971 the groups changed). In 1969 group 3 would be GT and group 4 would be sportscars (1971: touring cars & GT).

Appendix K says:
Touring, Competition Touring, GT and GTS cars of Period
G2 (1/1/1970-31/12/1971) onwards must comply with the
Appendix J international Competition regulations appropriate to
the final year of their period as defined in Article 3.

So we are looking at Appendix J of 1971.

But, appendix K then says:

(b) These models must have a competition history and the special
mechanical parts are limited to those authorised in the period
Appendix J rules applicable to Group 3 cars and Article 5 (Safety).


Also, this part about "alternative components" is not very clear to me:

Alternative components to the original manufacturer’s specifications
can only be used if it is proven that these components were allowed by the period Appendix J and/or homologation form applicable to the car concerned and, in both cases, used in that model of car in a Competition entered on the FIA International Sporting Calendar in
the period.


So my questions are:

1) Period J of 1971 allows any wheel width. Can I use any wheel width on my car, or do I need to provide period proof of those widths?

2) Appendix J allows the fitment of suspension attachment joints of a different type. Again, period proof needed?

3) Appendix J allows free induction systems, so any carb we want. But, again, only the stock one is homologated. Do we need to get period proof of alternatives?

So essentially: Period G2, sticking to homologated items? Which is essentially the standard car, therefor nothing to race with. What counts as an "alternative component", wheels? carbs? joints? Can we modify to appendix J of 1971? If so, do we need period proof for every different item?


Quite a long-winded post, so apologies, but I am really struggling with the regulations. Every time you think that you've figured it out, another addition somewhere will upset everything.

Hopefully someone will be able to help me out!

Thanks in advance,


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Old 14 Apr 2014, 07:38 (Ref:3392227)   #131
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Serge, my interpretation (and I reiterate, my) of J and K is thus-

If you car is to be 1970 spec then it needs to conform to J of that period, in other words the version with that or a preceding year date. I haven't studied it, but this could be overridden by App K, which is updated regularly rather than a period 'set in stone' document.

Any modified parts fitted to the car now will have to be either homologated at the time or with proof that it / they were used in period. Normally in a competition run under an International permit. Just because something was 'free' in period, it doesn't mean it is 'free' now. This is perhaps why you don't see some models racing nowadays, as they were not homologated or never competed at a high enough level for proof of any mods to be available now.

All this is of course only needed if you want to race the car in events run at FIA level. You could always build (for example) a replica modsports Europa and run it in events that are happy to accept it.......

I may have said this before, but the MSA scrutineers that are responsible for HTP inspections are usually quite happy to give guidance on interpretation of J and K. They are listed in the blue book and on MSA website.

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Old 14 Apr 2014, 08:15 (Ref:3392235)   #132
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Quite agree Mike, Serge, I assume you have as many Lotus books as is possible? I think one possible problem you have with your car is its build date.You need to be able to supply photographic evidence of modifications that were carried over till the seventies, or just build the car with reasonable mods that are used by most current day owner/builders?
Where are you based?
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Old 14 Apr 2014, 09:34 (Ref:3392251)   #133
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Serge should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thank you both, it was as I thought it would be!

I am based in Belgium and I have heard the rumours that our FIA inspectors aren't always up to the same standard as they are in the UK. Although I am sure that it won't be completely true, I was going to ask here first.

We are trying to make contact with some people who raced these in period, but there weren't so many races with an international FIA license that they participated in. One of them is the 1969 sebring 12h, but I only found a couple of on track photographs so far.

Is there a way to find out if a certain race was run on a national or international FIA license in period?

There has been evidence found to run a Europa as a sportscar in period G2, with a renault crossflow engine and some big modifications, but they are simply no match for their period rivals. I think they can do OK in GT spec without too many modifications, but some are definitely needed (carbs and exhaust at the least!).

Being in Belgium doesn't leave much room for non-FIA races. I know Pieter Bakker has his Legendary Circuits series, and that might be nice. But the championship that I had my eye on was the FHR-langstreckencup in Germany, and they need the HTP's.

I will need to do some more research and hopefully find some period proof!


Thanks everyone,

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Old 14 Apr 2014, 13:21 (Ref:3392354)   #134
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Good luck Serge and apologies for not noticing that you were Belgium based!

Your comment about different HTP inspection standards in different countries could be worthy of a thread on its own, but perhaps not........

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Old 14 Apr 2014, 16:53 (Ref:3392435)   #135
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Serge, congratulations on your choice of series! I will ask around on your behalf, one inspector lives 10km away from me, very helpfull guy and good friend of Jeremy Hall.
Actually, I'll try and call him but pretty sure hes away till early next week.
Have you checked World Sports Car site? Jan has done an excellent job on that site-well worth a look anyway.
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