Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

[djr81]

Originally Posted by one five five

How many of the classified finishers in 1984 were Group A cars though?

8.

But the leading car (A TWR Rover) was 11 laps down. The money Mobil threw at the team that year was staggering.

As an aside Allan Scott's TWR and Rover 's SD1 is a great read although his round about attempt at justifying the BAHCO rockers didnt do much for me. The other two books in the series are really good too.

[Mixer]

The cars for which ARG stopped paying:

https://www.australianracinggroup.com/marketplace/

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[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Ok then. That means up to 23 competitors for the series.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

What you say about the regs, fine.

But ARG owns most or all of the cars in this country and is still paying the bills.

Come make this suggestion when there are actual standalone teams and not just the second year in a row of contracted exhibition races as a fishing expedition.

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How about I make the suggestion when there's authentic touring cars racing in a genuine touring cars series in Australia?

That would've meant I would've registered to this site last year?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

It is absolutely true and the truth about the Kelly and Bright entries has already basically completely come out after the subterfuge that the teams themselves actually purchased and owned these cars ended.

It's irrelevant as the Kelly's are not a drawcard or popular.

Bright had nothing else to do.

I like how you portray as if something seriously sinister is going on. When all the BS has actually been with the 5 litre class.

Originally Posted by Mixer

GRM are heavily involved with ARG, and they and Wall, MPC, and HMO all want to put on a show because they want to sell cars and spare parts.

I also like how you put a dark spin on this. Selling cars and parts is what happens in a car racing series. It's what's meant to happen.

Originally Posted by Mixer

I would suggest when the money stops MPC's Audi will go back home. Not sure they will sell any cars now that VAG is out and there will be no further development.

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Yeah. They'll probaly move into supercars racing with support from Holden.

[Mixer]

I note you don't address the issue at hand, that ARG contracted every car in the grid to run last year, while releasing press releases and stories about how these teams purchased and owned these cars.

And Supercars is the one with the BS?

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[Compromised]

Maybe semantics, but doesn't the REC system function similarly (in a roundabout way) to what ARG are doing? I mean, without it how many teams would still be racing?

In short, money from the series/promoter/whatever has bought the cars.

Same same?

[Mixer]

No because the RECs are a shareholding in the business. The REC income is a dividend to a shareholder.

I don't blame ARG for doing what they have, it's BIG money and they wanted to make a splash.

But you can't take it seriously here yet when it only exists at the behest of the organiser.

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[Casper]

I have no dog in this fight but in reality every series is at the behest or the organiser/promotor because without their financial support racing does not happen. Any way you look at it the promoter has to stump up money to make it work and whether he can recoup that money is always a gamble. If the money buys cars the promoter has some equity to recover if it all fails. My ideal way to go racing would be for the promotor to have an arrive and drive and he takes the financial hit if it goes down the gurglar which seems to happen all too often.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

I note you don't address the issue at hand, that ARG contracted every car in the grid to run last year, while releasing press releases and stories about how these teams purchased and owned these cars.

I didn't address the issue at hand? You want me to write more? Ok then.

I can only speculate as to why they did that. The business/commercial situation is not something I had in depth knowledge about, and I did not look further. I wouldn't have encouraged them to do it.

Originally Posted by Mixer

And Supercars is the one with the BS?

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Always.

But getting back to speculating ARG's strategy?

I would say it's a precursor to show prospective competitors what the series could look like if they got involved.

As the commercial rights holder, I would say that ARG were open to looking silly regardless of how they chose to start the series. They just chose the method they were more comfortable with.

They start as they did, and all the backlash they get is from people like you picking holes and lame supercars fans deriding/emasculating the spectacle of the cars.

As the commercial rights holder assigned to create an economy around the series, I'd say ARG chose the method they did because they couldn't be bothered waiting for a more organic growth to the series to occur.

As the commercial rights holder, I'd say they chose the path they did because they had nothing to work with. The series doesn't have any history to trade off. No big names to trade off. They only thing they had going for them is the maybe the memory of some fans having of the 90s BTCC and Super Touring down here. But that's not something you can really use commercially.

I'd say ARG weren't really sure how popular they've be first up? As per the previous paragraph, they had nothing to work with. All the market research, surveys and focus groups wouldn't have allowed them to be really confident in their product. In hindsight, they might not have exaggerated their situation or spoken straight lies.

I'd say that with at least one person on their group working at supercars, I'd say that ARG have learnt that talking complete BS works. They didn't have the luxury of waiting for possible organic growth. We live in an age where pumping things up is a norm. Dragging out information and boosting a social media presence is the norm. Nobody cares now.

I'll think of more as I go along. However this is only from the perspective of ARG and their tactics. If a group like them are needed, then it's only when the initial work is done and you need help to create or maintain an economy.

From the point of view of CAMS/MA, they could've started TCR or another 2 litre class years ago, and it would've got to the point where a commercial organisation may have been needed. Unlike ARG, who have commercial interests at stake, CAMS/MA would've had the space to allow a series to grow organically.

CAMS/MA could've allowed a TCR series years ago without fanfare or a commercial right holder. No doubt the series would've started modestly (4-6 cars?) and maybe lumped with another class. But had it started in 2015, a meaningful series would've emerged looking similar to as it is now.

What else are you going to pick at?

Too many white cars maybe?

They're racing at Bathurst, but it's not a real Bathurst with a multiple class, 55 car field?

They haven't attracted Fernando Alonso to race in it?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

No because the RECs are a shareholding in the business. The REC income is a dividend to a shareholder.

REC is a clique designed to save the backside of the scrubbers like Paul Morris at the time, who'd have been vulnerable to failing to qualify by new entrants.

It's designed to keep out prospective competitors unless they have billions.

I don't blame ARG for doing what they have, it's BIG money and they wanted to make a splash.

Originally Posted by Mixer

But you can't take it seriously here yet when it only exists at the behest of the organiser.

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The series exists at the behest of CAMS/MA.

It's not a question of being unable to take it seriously, because you'd have picked any hole to diminish the series.

Regardless of any success TCR generates, you'll continually move the posts. You will also resent any such success.

[Mixer]

Blah blah blah

I have watched more TCR than Supercars in the last year. I enjoyed it.

But it is not a serious independent series yet. It is a show put on by the promoter.

The stuff above about RECs is unhinged conspiracy claptrap.

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[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

But it is not a serious independent series yet. It is a show put on by the promoter.

Of course it was, I thought that was the aim of any promoter, why would they promote if that was not the end goal?

[Mixer]

So let's give out Logies instead of the ATCC then

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[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

So let's give out Logies instead of the ATCC then

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Probably appropriate, we’ve been told V8Supercars are entertainment and not sport since 1997

[gravin]

Originally Posted by one five five

Probably appropriate, we’ve been told V8Supercars are entertainment and not sport since 1997

I feel that this is where motorsport in Australia is off the rails. It is after all motorSPORT.

[Mixer]

Tell it to AFL, NRL, cricket, tennis eh

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[Casper]

Originally Posted by gravin

I feel that this is where motorsport in Australia is off the rails. It is after all motorSPORT.

It is a method to make a whole lot of money for some people like it or not and people like Cochrane have done just that for better or worse. I think he was very clever as no one else had the foresight to do the same. The sport is an anachronism from before people were making money out of it and is now only truly found in amateur levels of motor sport.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Casper

I think he was very clever as no one else had the foresight to do the same.

No one else had been allowed to do the same before IMG/Tony Cochrane came on the scene

CAMS only handed over category management rights to TEGA at the end of 1995, who then got into bed with Cochrane during 1996 and then the BS started for the 1997 season

[Casper]

Originally Posted by one five five

No one else had been allowed to do the same before IMG/Tony Cochrane came on the scene

CAMS only handed over category management rights to TEGA at the end of 1995, who then got into bed with Cochrane during 1996 and then the BS started for the 1997 season

Yes, but he would have had everything in place to proceed knowing what was going to happen v's us already in motor sport who never saw the potential or anyone else for that matter. Speculation might also suggest he encouraged the change to the new regime as well.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

No one else had been allowed to do the same before IMG/Tony Cochrane came on the scene



CAMS only handed over category management rights to TEGA at the end of 1995, who then got into bed with Cochrane during 1996 and then the BS started for the 1997 season

I love how the longest period of stability and prosperity - more than 25 years in fact, is when you think "the BS started"

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[one five five]

Originally Posted by Casper

Speculation might also suggest he encouraged the change to the new regime as well.

Interesting theory

Facts show though that other organisations had obtained category rights management agreements from CAMS for other categories before the start of the 1995 season, while after long negotiations TEGA didn’t obtain the V8 rights until the end of 1995, and the deal with IMG and Tony Cochrane not announced until September 1996, and influencing only from the start of 1997

Originally Posted by Mixer

I love how the longest period of stability and prosperity - more than 25 years in fact, is when you think "the BS started".

Picking fights and putting down other categories, going to war with existing events and categories

That sort of BS was not around prior to September 1996

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by one five five

Picking fights and putting down other categories, going to war with existing events and categories

That sort of BS was not around prior to September 1996

Neither were street races and 200 million dollar TV contracts, so you know, ying and yang.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

Interesting theory



Facts show though that other organisations had obtained category rights management agreements from CAMS for other categories before the start of the 1995 season, while after long negotiations TEGA didn’t obtain the V8 rights until the end of 1995, and the deal with IMG and Tony Cochrane not announced until September 1996, and influencing only from the start of 1997







Picking fights and putting down other categories, going to war with existing events and categories



That sort of BS was not around prior to September 1996

Oh right like the category that described V8s as "dinosaurs"? Alan Gow and by proxy Kelvin O'Reilly didn't spare the whip either so let's not revise history just because one died within 2 years and one went on for more than 10 times that...

Just quietly the head of any organisation is out to push the interests of that organisation above all others. Whether it be sport or business, or a sport that runs as a business, this is how it works. If someone was out competed by Supercars then they simply needed to recruit better.

Very good CEOs are rarely popular because they get **** done.

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[one five five]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Neither were street races and 200 million dollar TV contracts, so you know, ying and yang.

Still would have happened without going to war with other categories. Other categories might have been able to prosper alongside as well

Originally Posted by mayhem

Oh right like the category that described V8s as "dinosaurs"? Alan Gow and by proxy Kelvin O'Reilly didn't spare the whip either so let's not revise history just because one died within 2 years and one went on for more than 10 times that...

Just quietly the head of any organisation is out to push the interests of that organisation above all others. Whether it be sport or business, or a sport that runs as a business, this is how it works. If someone was out competed by Supercars then they simply needed to recruit better.

Very good CEOs are rarely popular because they get **** done.

Please show me the quotes where Alan Gow and Kelvin O’Reilly themselves describe V8s as dinosaurs?

The organisers of the Bathurst 1000, which didn’t involve Gow or O’Reilly, may have said that, but only after negotiations with AVESCO had fallen over

In 1996 no other categories were ‘competing’ with Supercars, Australian motor racing was competing with other sports. In 1997 it was AVESCO that suddenly decided other motor racing categories were the enemy, not other sports