$5 Million IndyCar Challenge at Las Vegas

[Jay]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I don't think the cash bonus played any involvement whatsoever in Dan Wheldon's death. If his car had flipped the other way, he'd be alive. On the other hand if Will Power's car had flipped the other way he'd have died.

On the other hand if guys like Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe..and no doubt others had flipped the other way, they'd be dead as well. The amazing thing isn't that a driver was killed in this manner...it's more the fact that it hasn't happened until now that is amazing. This crash was no fluke.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand if guys like Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe..and no doubt others had flipped the other way, they'd be dead as well. The amazing thing isn't that a driver was killed in this manner...it's more the fact that it hasn't happened until now that is amazing. This crash was no fluke.

Exactly right. But for the grace of God, or whomever, have we not had more fatalities.

[fieldodreams79]

I think JJ's comments have been blown out of proportion because they have little merit being based on emotion and from completely different frame of mind regarding racing. Mario and AJ are going to defend their sport no matter what; that is their right, but comparing the safety today to when those two drove is somewhat off base as well. ALL forms of motorsports have had seen vast improvements in safety since "their day".

This is not a knock on either Mario or AJ, both whom I have the utmost respect for, is that the article conveniently doesn't have the two legends addressing the specifics regarding the circumstances that led up to this tragedy, other than Mario saying it was "freak", which is completely wrong, IMHO.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I think JJ's comments have been blown out of proportion because they have little merit being based on emotion and from completely different frame of mind regarding racing. Mario and AJ are going to defend their sport no matter what; that is their right, but comparing the safety today to when those two drove is somewhat off base as well. ALL forms of motorsports have had seen vast improvements in safety since "their day".

This is not a knock on either Mario or AJ, both whom I have the utmost respect for, is that the article conveniently doesn't have the two legends addressing the specifics regarding the circumstances that led up to this tragedy, other than Mario saying it was "freak", which is completely wrong, IMHO.

Please remember that Mario took a "flight" of his own in a Dallara at Indy in a test session that damn near put him into the 2nd turn grandstands at Indy...He does have experience in this model of the Dallara.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Please remember that Mario took a "flight" of his own in a Dallara at Indy in a test session that damn near put him into the 2nd turn grandstands at Indy...He does have experience in this model of the Dallara.

I recall...that was testing at THE speedway and not racing on high banks in a pack, which has always been my biggest concern regarding the type of racing. My knowledge on aero and car design is sub-par, at best.

And did he get back in the Dallara after that? I am just asking as I cannot recall...

[Tim Northcutt]

He wanted to, but his wife and family said "No Way."

Another note:

Anyone who doesn't think that the Lolas or Reynards got airborne, just look up any video that exists on Stan Fox's crash in the 1995 Indy 500.

I don't care if it is a high-banked oval or not...when OW cars run in a pack and the wheels touch, they will fly...regardless of the model of car.

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I don't care if it is a high-banked oval or not...when OW cars run in a pack and the wheels touch, they will fly...regardless of the model of car.

Sure, but the pack racing because of the high banks exacerbated the risk unnecessarily.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I recall...that was testing at THE speedway and not racing on high banks in a pack, which has always been my biggest concern regarding the type of racing. My knowledge on aero and car design is sub-par, at best.

And did he get back in the Dallara after that? I am just asking as I cannot recall...

Not wanting to detract from any accidemt, the fact these Dallaras can take off so easily, whether it's IMS or LVMS is worrying. Thankfully they'll never be used again.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

He wanted to, but his wife and family said "No Way."

Another note:

Anyone who doesn't think that the Lolas or Reynards got airborne, just look up any video that exists on Stan Fox's crash in the 1995 Indy 500.

I don't care if it is a high-banked oval or not...when OW cars run in a pack and the wheels touch, they will fly...regardless of the model of car.

To a certain extent that's true but in all the years I've followed motorsport, I've never seen a race car so susceptible to becoming airborne like the Dallara and some of these airborne incidents like Mario's involved running over debris.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by fieldodreams79

I think JJ's comments have been blown out of proportion because they have little merit being based on emotion and from completely different frame of mind regarding racing. Mario and AJ are going to defend their sport no matter what; that is their right, but comparing the safety today to when those two drove is somewhat off base as well. ALL forms of motorsports have had seen vast improvements in safety since "their day".

This is not a knock on either Mario or AJ, both whom I have the utmost respect for, is that the article conveniently doesn't have the two legends addressing the specifics regarding the circumstances that led up to this tragedy, other than Mario saying it was "freak", which is completely wrong, IMHO.

aj the foyt has been on the hulman george welfare train for years, so he isn't going to provide anything worthy of substance.

mario seems to have several relationships now as a pr hack for the irl and associated groups and with him taking a paycheck, he obviously isn't going to throw himself on a grenade and speak the truth.

This isn't a "freak" accident, these problems have been well documented for years. It's like peeing on someones leg and telling them it's raining. mario and aj can generate PR excuses and rationalization all they want and tell everyone it's a freaky one off event, but it isn't, especially since mario nearly did himself in back in 2003 in a similar aerial flight.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

He wanted to, but his wife and family said "No Way."

Another note:

Anyone who doesn't think that the Lolas or Reynards got airborne, just look up any video that exists on Stan Fox's crash in the 1995 Indy 500.

I don't care if it is a high-banked oval or not...when OW cars run in a pack and the wheels touch, they will fly...regardless of the model of car.

I have a still photo of Fox's crash and that was nothing like the many dozens of irl space shuttle flights that have occurred.

Sure, stuff is going to happen in any high speed open wheel formula series, no one denies that. But the rocket mimicking dallara darts have had big issues for a long time and it's never been addressed. People can find all these one off examples out there as though that rationalizes what has been going on in the irl and those people that have an appreciation of history as well as an intellect can see right through all that deflection of responsibility.

[davyboy]

I keep reading about concerns over the financial welfare of the Wheldon family. Paul Tracy's said that the $5M should be given to support his kids, Bernard has launched a donations site etc... I don't want to this to come across insensitive, because it's not meant to be one bit, but I would have thought that Dan Wheldon's success would have left him and his family quite comfortable and surely he would also have had significant life assurance cover [even given the dangers of his sport]. Is this not the case ? Is there an even further upsetting footnote to this tragedy ?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I have a still photo of Fox's crash and that was nothing like the many dozens of irl space shuttle flights that have occurred.

Sure, stuff is going to happen in any high speed open wheel formula series, no one denies that. But the rocket mimicking dallara darts have had big issues for a long time and it's never been addressed. People can find all these one off examples out there as though that rationalizes what has been going on in the irl and those people that have an appreciation of history as well as an intellect can see right through all that deflection of responsibility.

Nonsense...Fox was airborne and up into the fence, but the nose caught and ripped the car in two. Fox's legs were hanging out of the front of the car when what was left of it came to a stop. It happened about 300 yards from me and people closer to the action were showered with CF.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

mario seems to have several relationships now as a pr hack for the irl and associated groups and with him taking a paycheck, he obviously isn't going to throw himself on a grenade and speak the truth.

Actually, Mario for many, many years has been highly critical of IndyCar and even as recently as earlier this year expressed his displeasure for double-wide restarts, as an example.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Nonsense...Fox was airborne and up into the fence, but the nose caught and ripped the car in two. Fox's legs were hanging out of the front of the car when what was left of it came to a stop. It happened about 300 yards from me and people closer to the action were showered with CF.

I for one can't deny Fox's car was airborne but the frequency with which the Dallaras take off, compared to any other, open wheel, single seat car is staggering and begs the question, how well was the car designed?

[Tim Northcutt]

BTW...

If my eyes don't deceive me, the late Jeff Krosnoff was a little flighty in this clip....on a road course...He didn't walk away from his crash, either.

Should we ban racing on those, too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODJoZwik_E

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

BTW...

If my eyes don't deceive me, the late Jeff Krosnoff was a little flighty in this clip....on a road course...He didn't walk away from his crash, either.

Should we ban racing on those, too?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kODJoZwik_E

No one's denying it happens, just not with the fequency of the Flying Dallaras.

It happens in F1. Here's Mark Webber at Valencia last year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iHsCWAbtGs

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

BTW...

If my eyes don't deceive me, the late Jeff Krosnoff was a little flighty in this clip....on a road course...He didn't walk away from his crash, either.

Should we ban racing on those, too?

No, we shouldn't. This question shouldn't be beyond review but I don't believe any of the current Indycar tracks are unsuitable subject to catch-fence, barrier and other safety innovations.

Putting aside my own preferences, I think the cards for ovals have been marked though for publicity and financial reasons and I think if the slate of ovals are clipped down to the Indy 500 only for 2013 and beyond it will inflict further fundamental damage to the sport.

[bjohnsonsmith]

When it comes to oval racing IndyCar just needs to be sensible about it and realise there are limits. Clearly these limits were over reached last Sunday with terrible consequences, but that doesn't mean a knee-jerk reaction and clamping down on oval racing. All that's needed is an examination of which tracks are suitable and which aren't and that can be done by just looking at the track configuration.

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Jay

On the other hand if guys like Kenny Brack, Ryan Briscoe..and no doubt others had flipped the other way, they'd be dead as well. The amazing thing isn't that a driver was killed in this manner...it's more the fact that it hasn't happened until now that is amazing. This crash was no fluke.

And for all those criticizing Dallara, given the violence of the accident one would have thought there would have been multiple fatalities. Had it not been for sheer mischance - Wheldon's second bounce off Meira's tyre, perhaps, or had he been a hundredth of a second later - there would have been barely any injuries at all...

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ensign14

And for all those criticizing Dallara, given the violence of the accident one would have thought there would have been multiple fatalities. Had it not been for sheer mischance - Wheldon's second bounce off Meira's tyre, perhaps, or had he been a hundredth of a second later - there would have been barely any injuries at all...

That didn't happen.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

I would have thought the nerf-bars would make a perfect ramp, from which to launch the car.

If tires do not cars normally will not take off, period.

ANY CAR, can fly as this sprint car shot shows.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

If tires do not cars normally will not take off, period.

ANY CAR, can fly as this sprint car shot shows.

Indeed, just as Mark Webber demonstrated in Valencia last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iHsCWAbtGs

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Nonsense...Fox was airborne and up into the fence, but the nose caught and ripped the car in two. Fox's legs were hanging out of the front of the car when what was left of it came to a stop. It happened about 300 yards from me and people closer to the action were showered with CF.

As I said I have a quite sizable picture of the crash in my collection and am well familiar with it. It was nothing like the dozens of space shuttle launches that have occurred in the irl over the years.

You never saw this kind of nonsense happen all the time like it does in the irl on a regular basis:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/oth...tographer.html

The irl supporters seem to be in denial. No one has ever said big accidents and fatalities did not happen in the past in other series. But the irl has a long history of cars involved in taking flight in spectacular ways, many, many, many times(see youtube). It also has a long history of poor safety with hundreds of injuries involving hospital stays. This type of nonsense has been going on for years and the irl just ignored it.

The same way they ignore the buffoons in race control.

Using a crash that happened 17 years ago to try to excuse this behavior is like trying to balance yourself on a one legged bar stool. Aint happenin'.

The bigger issue is that it's not just about the drivers or those directly involved in the irl, but the safety of the few fans that actually turn up. All it is going to take is one of these dallara lawn darts to end up in a crowd and it's curtains for motorsport in the USA. We have to look out for the whole industry as a whole, not just the irl and I encourage everyone to write the ACCUS and FIA, tracks involved, sponsors involved and so on, as this travesty must end.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Actually, Mario for many, many years has been highly critical of IndyCar and even as recently as earlier this year expressed his displeasure for double-wide restarts, as an example.

He softened his stance years ago and now he is in the bag.

Mario is known throughout the business for being a puppet to speak about whatever he is paid for. I've heard a few jokes about it over the years. He doesn't do stuff for free. He is a paid speaker after all. He HAS a dime in it, so his lightweight PR fluff comments are pretty useless.