$5 Million IndyCar Challenge at Las Vegas

[JHamilton]

Terrible day for motorsport.

To update everyone on JR Hildebrand and Pippa Mann, they are going to be kept overnight at the hospital but are expected to be okay.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by JHamilton

Terrible day for motorsport.

To update everyone on JR Hildebrand and Pippa Mann, they are going to be kept overnight at the hospital but are expected to be okay.

Any update on Will Power's back injury?

[Mr Revhead]

Will was released after no significant injury was found.

Also I don't believe the number of cars played a part.
That could have happened with 5 cars.
Imo it is the speed the allow

[FastJoel31]

Absolutely horrible. Seeing the announcement live was gut-wrenching. RIP Dan. My thoughts and prayers are with the Wheldon family.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

Will was released after no significant injury was found.

Also I don't believe the number of cars played a part.
That could have happened with 5 cars.
Imo it is the speed the allow

That's good to know.

Well it seemed to start with one car and then the other cars just got caught up in it as the accident unfortunately unfolded.

[christcc2]

Remember, the real problem here is that the current chassis is not a ground-effect chassis. There is very little downforce/aero with the undertray of the car holding the car to the track.

You never saw this sort of thing with the Reynards, Penske's, Lola's and Swift's because their undertrays were "underwings", and produced the majority of the down-force that actually held those chassis' to the ground around speedways and super-speedways.

Improper car design caused this problem. No under-wing = any pitch up makes a car go airborne. Open wheels are not the problem.

These cars need a proper under-wing.

The worst thing Indy Car, and anyone can do right now, is PANIC, and call for drastic changes. We don't need to neuter Indy Car because of this tragedy. Put proper chassis' on the track that can handle speed safely. We had cars in the late 1990's that could handle 240+ with no safety issue at all.

What we do need to do is honor Dan's death, his family, and make sure these drivers start to drive professionally. If you can't hold a proper racing line, if you can't handle driving these cars, then you shouldn't have the privilege to drive a top-tier open wheel car. We used to have the best-of-the-best driving these cars. They knew how to drive. There are so many drivers in this series that are too dangerous on the track. They shouldn't be allowed to drive at all in this series.

Get these chassis' to have an underwing like we had in the 1990's. There were none of these types of crashes then with Swift, Reynard, Lola or Penske because the undertray produced the majority of the downforce on the car. No ground effects = a chassis that can get airborne if there is any pitch up with the car.

Fix the fundamental flaw with this chassis design, fix it now and make sure the 2012 car produces enough downforce before front and rear areo are applied.

Clamp down on unprofessional driving.

Get the amateurs off the track. CART pulled drivers out of live races that were unsafe or too slow. Indy Car needs to do the same.

I agree that horsepower helps to solve this problem.

An Indy Car should be able to go 225mph+ on a track without any safety issues. CART was going 230+ without safety issues.

These darned overly banked ovals need to go. Michigan had the most banking that was acceptable for an open-wheeled car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by christcc2

Remember, the real problem here is that the current chassis is not a ground-effect chassis. There is very little downforce/aero with the undertray of the car holding the car to the track.

You never saw this sort of thing with the Reynards, Penske's, Lola's and Swift's because their undertrays were "underwings", and produced the majority of the down-force that actually held those chassis' to the ground around speedways and super-speedways.

Improper car design caused this problem. No under-wing = any pitch up makes a car go airborne. Open wheels are not the problem.

These cars need a proper under-wing.

The worst thing Indy Car, and anyone can do right now, is PANIC, and call for drastic changes. We don't need to neuter Indy Car because of this tragedy. Put proper chassis' on the track that can handle speed safely. We had cars in the late 1990's that could handle 240+ with no safety issue at all.

What we do need to do is honor Dan's death, his family, and make sure these drivers start to drive professionally. If you can't hold a proper racing line, if you can't handle driving these cars, then you shouldn't have the privilege to drive a top-tier open wheel car. We used to have the best-of-the-best driving these cars. They knew how to drive. There are so many drivers in this series that are too dangerous on the track. They shouldn't be allowed to drive at all in this series.

Get these chassis' to have an underwing like we had in the 1990's. There were none of these types of crashes then with Swift, Reynard, Lola or Penske because the undertray produced the majority of the downforce on the car. No ground effects = a chassis that can get airborne if there is any pitch up with the car.

Fix the fundamental flaw with this chassis design, fix it now and make sure the 2012 car produces enough downforce before front and rear areo are applied.

Clamp down on unprofessional driving.

Get the amateurs off the track. CART pulled drivers out of live races that were unsafe or too slow. Indy Car needs to do the same.

I agree that horsepower helps to solve this problem.

An Indy Car should be able to go 225mph+ on a track without any safety issues. CART was going 230+ without safety issues.

These darned overly banked ovals need to go. Michigan had the most banking that was acceptable for an open-wheeled car.

Just what I said about these cars.

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Agreed. The problem with the present Dallara is that it wasn't/isn't a ground effect car, so if the front end lifts up enough the air will rush in underneath and flip it. I don't remember seeing incidents like that with either Lolas or Reynards, though I'm quite open to being corrected.

Utmost respect to his family.

[Purist]

I'll try to keep this part brief.

They need to test out power and aero levels at this sort of track. Find a set-up that breaks up the pack some, and that forces the drivers to lift in the turns, but that isn't so extreme that the drivers are blacking out (CART Texas 2001). If this window cannot be found (or doesn't exist), then this sort of oval will need to be dropped from the series.

This started as a day with such promise, and well, ended so awfully. It's worst of all for his wife and their two little boys, who are both young enough that they may never have a memory of their father.

Something else, that I noticed in the SpeedTV article, is that, from the Alex Tagliani quote, it sounded like he and Dan had the same father (making them half brothers if that's the case).
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...s-vegas-finale

[rustyfan]

RIP Dan.

[Nicholosophy]

Originally Posted by Purist

Something else, that I noticed in the SpeedTV article, is that, from the Alex Tagliani quote, it sounded like he and Dan had the same father (making them half brothers if that's the case).
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...s-vegas-finale

Just to clear this up, "Brother from another mother" was the line used. This means he considered him to be like a brother. It's something the kids all use these days.

Sheesh I'm 31 and I'm saying "kids". Enough said.

[racer69]

A great tragedy RIP Dan Wheldon


As for the accident, a racing one in my opinion.

[neiltb]

It really was an awful thing to watch.

I was going to write what I thought caused it, but now isn't the right time.

[Paradise City]

Some of the papers are trotting out the generic 'he may have been trying too hard' canard. I'd jail some of these editors if I could.

The was track was fine, 35 cars on it was pure folly though. I don't want to see recriminations, witchhunts or knee-jerk reactions however that would hurt the sport for no reason. Drivers give their consent to race and can withdraw that consent at any time and they know the potential price that may have to be paid. The series should learn from this accident and make the right adjustments for the future.

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Some of the papers are trotting out the generic 'he may have been trying too hard' canard. I'd jail some of these editors if I could.

The was track was fine, 35 cars on it was pure folly though. I don't want to see recriminations, witchhunts or knee-jerk reactions however that would hurt the sport for no reason. Drivers give their consent to race and can withdraw that consent at any time and they know the potential price that may have to be paid. The series should learn from this accident and make the right adjustments for the future.

Well put.

It is just extremely tragic for this to happen during the final outing of the current Dallara, everything that could have went wrong did go wrong, and the ''glamourous'' Indycar World Championships @ Las Vegas turned into a horrifying tragic mess of an event that I would like to forget about as quickly as possible.

Indycar will learn some hard lessons from this. But there will be plenty of time for discussions of those matters at a later date, its still all sinking in and emotions are still high, there are many who need some quiet reflection, myself included.

[ujoint]

No more *****in about oval tracks for indycars. Car design and track layout/length is more of a concern. Watchin the race is for mature audiences. If you can't watch or don't like what you see on the round d rounds including the accidents and even deaths then watch tennis or ping pong. Hey Brian maybe some longer tracks for ovals and chassis that will dump the air when the car lifts off the ground. IMO. Just sayin. Dan Wheldon, thanks for the memories.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by ujoint

No more *****in about oval tracks for indycars. Car design and track layout/length is more of a concern. Watchin the race is for mature audiences. If you can't watch or don't like what you see on the round d rounds including the accidents and even deaths then watch tennis or ping pong. Hey Brian maybe some longer tracks for ovals and chassis that will dump the air when the car lifts off the ground. IMO. Just sayin. Dan Wheldon, thanks for the memories.

The 2012 car is meant to be ground effect, unlike the present Dallara, so the car will adhere to the track better.

[Gaz170]

Really hits home here in Aus due to the fact that Dan was to drive here this weekend in the GC600 V8 Supercar event with his friend James Courtney. Here on the Gold Coast everyone is shocked by Dan's death and it has been announced that a tribute to him will be done at the event. It is expected that none of the 6 Indycar drivers booked for the event (including Will Power, who's replacement has already been announced) will now turn up.
Brings home the reality of the incident. RIP Dan.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

Indycar will learn some hard lessons from this. But there will be plenty of time for discussions of those matters at a later date, its still all sinking in and emotions are still high, there are many who need some quiet reflection, myself included.

They will not learn any hard lessons from this, because in 15 years they never have.

I do not need to quietly reflect, as I have known and know now and don't need to put on an air of false reflection or mourning for a tragedy that should never have happened.

Nose high, ass dragging, barndoor winged bumblebee cars running in packs at 225 mph with a lot of talentless drivers who have no business being there on tracks with cheese grater fencing has been the irl's modus operandi since 1997. Once these cars get air underneath they take off like a 747 and it's in the hands of God and physics where they end up. It's happened time and time and time again.

There are dead and disabled drivers because of it and the irl has never changed a thing except to throw up some SAFER barrier here and there. Carbon fibre and cheese grater fencing is stupid.

Accidents in motor sport over the decades happen, I know and accept that, especially with open wheel racing. But this is has been a chronic issue with the irl and it has never changed. F1 learned after Senna's death, the irl never has and it's time for criminal and civil legal investigations to commence in regards to this particular incident. There are several people with blood on their hands, they know it, we know it and charges need to be brought against them. Fortunately the media is taking an interest and those responsible need to have the hard questions asked of them.

I've also been on the oval at LVMS and you'd have to be a nutter to put 34 bumblebee cars on the track at that place at 225 mph. TOTAL INSANITY.

I and a few others have been considered heretics for being the canary in the mine and constantly pointing out the irl's careless lack of safety and common sense. I knew another big one was coming, so I am not surprised.

What angers me is that a young man with a family had to pay the price for the irl and their constant endemic stupidity. He was just trying to race cars and make a living. Sometimes things happen. But this was pointless, senseless and should have never taken place.

That $2.5 million that rodeo randy used to get Dan to race for, should be paid out to his family, I don't care if it was an insurance policy or not, the hulman georges need to pay out for this one.

Damn tony george, damn brian barnyard, damn rodeo randy, damn them all to hell.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The 2012 car is meant to be ground effect, unlike the present Dallara, so the car will adhere to the track better.

If it still runs nose high, ass down, it will only help so much.

I am no engineer but there are others in the past that have done a great job of describing how and why the Dallara Darts are run like that along with the irl rules that made that happen.

A big part of the problem is you have a bunch of half weight drivers that flunked out of european formula feeder series or rich daddies that bought rides and their driving skill is not there to run in a pack of 34 cars with open wheels on a cheese grater steeply banked oval at 225 mph.

[christcc2]

mountainstar I agree with a lot of what you have said.

The minute Tony George decided to deviate from proven aero design, technology, and track choice (because how dare he do anything like CART was doing in their rules and regulations) is when the writing was on the wall that something was going to happen.

Not only did it, it did multiple times.

Cheap cars, cheap drivers, backwards design and bad rules making causes problems that result in driver injuries and deaths.

We've gone backwards since the split, and the lives of drivers have been part of the cost of these decisions.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by christcc2

Cheap cars, cheap drivers, backwards design and bad rules making causes problems that result in driver injuries and deaths.

We've gone backwards since the split, and the lives of drivers have been part of the cost of these decisions.

A lot of this is down to the design of the Dallara and the complete lack of development work on the car by Dallara themselves. However, the fact there hasn't been a fatality for a number of years on an oval is quite amazing, though there have been some horrific crashes from which drivers have walked away from. That can only be attributed to the use of carbon-fibre tubs, not to good car design.

Compared to the Lolas, Reynards, Swifts and Penskes as raced by CART, the Dallara is backward. Though I never followed the IRL but when I heard Dallara were to build the car, I couldn't understand why, as they made an abortion of an F1 car, despite it having a Ferrari engine.

Their last excursion into F1, with HRT was a disaster.

I hope there is a rethink about the new car but knowing the IRL's history it won't.

[I Rosputnik]

Sorry for my lack of knowledge here or if it seems stupid to ask, but would the FIA do an investigation into this?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

Sorry for my lack of knowledge here or if it seems stupid to ask, but would the FIA do an investigation into this?

No, IndyCar/IRL isn't governed by the FIA, though if they were approached to hold an independaet enquiry I think that would be a good idea.

[icemachine]

Indycar is its own sanctioning body so its not too likely, although they do nominally report to the AAA, which is an FIA member.

I'm sure they will do an investigation, maybe even have an "outsider" to lead it. Sadly I doubt they will get a real outsider to lead it.

[Purist]

The FIA did step in following the Peugeot imitation of an F-16 during testing at Paul Ricard, so I could see them stepping in here and now.

IICS is a member of the ACCUS, so they are tied to the FIA also.