Gloves and safety gear.

[grantp]

A quick question.

Just going back thorugh some snaps from last year and noticed that a number of drivers, especially in the oldest categories - possibly all pre-war bt I have not really checked in detail - seem to driving without wearing gloves.

Now I assume that there must be a cut-off point that has sanctioned events (I happen to be looking as Pau at the moment but I don't think it's a France only thing) offering the flexibility of driving with or without gloves.

Is that correct? Or should I keep these shots private?

[midgetman]

Shouldn't be correct, AFAIK there's no period exemption on clothing.

Any driver entered in an event on the international sporting calendar must abide by those rules. Plus IIRC the French are particularly hot on in date FIA clothing. Or is that only when Stand 21 are there?

[Dave Brand]

For UK events run under MSA rules the use of gloves is "strongly advised", not mandatory. (Blue Book K 9.1.8)

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

For UK events run under MSA rules the use of gloves is "strongly advised", not mandatory. (Blue Book K 9.1.8)

Flame retardant gloves mandatory from January (Blue book, Q.10.1.c)

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Flame retardant gloves mandatory from January (Blue book, Q.10.1.c)

I was quoting from the 2011 Blue Book, as I didn't have the 2012 version!

[Tim Falce]

There was something put out in the MSA mag earlier in the year and it also includes flame retardant shoes as well. I was talking to a scrutineer about it in October and he had no idea what I was on about plus as usual the MSA haven't made it very clear hiding it away in section Q instead of section K where as you say, it quotes they are only recommended not mandatory.

[MGDavid]

OP mentioned the Pau event - am I right in thinking this is not *officially* a race meeting as far as the French ASN is concerned, isn't it run as 'demonstration runs' or am I imagining it?

[grantp]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

OP mentioned the Pau event - am I right in thinking this is not *officially* a race meeting as far as the French ASN is concerned, isn't it run as 'demonstration runs' or am I imagining it?

It looked like a race event. Even the 'Club' runs in the lunch breaks looked like race events! The Lotus Club track time in particular looks quite racy watching the videos.

[midgetman]

To add to the confusion, speed eventers have had to wear f/r gloves for a couple of years now. But I don't think they are mandatory in rallies, which is why the reg is tucked away in the "race safety" section rather than general rules.

I've said it elsewhere this week, it would be easier for the MSA to adopt FIA rules on clothing. The cost is little more than the non homologated stuff and the quality/protection is higher. I'm amazed insurers don't insist on it, the FIA standard is the acknowledged worldwide standard, how can the MSA accept something that has been rejected by the governing body (Norme 86)?

[Simon Hadfield]

I believe a fair amount of pressure is being put upon the MSA to align with the FIA rules - at Monaco for example they don't invent any new rules they just apply the FIA rules precisely - as we here in the UK don't this always causes grief! Most of the new safety rules are common sense and I would like to think (but realistically doubt it) that the MSA, through the various clubs would make every one aware of the changes. A small one; this year the roll hoop for 1960 on cars must be 2 inches above the drivers helmeted head - and the little add on extensions DO NOT count as part of the 2 inches....other countries have their idiosyncrasies, for example in France a later than 1977 single seater driver HAS to wear a HANS device - its not simple these days!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

A small one; this year the roll hoop for 1960 on cars must be 2 inches above the drivers helmeted head - and the little add on extensions DO NOT count as part of the 2 inches....other countries have their idiosyncrasies, for example in France a later than 1977 single seater driver HAS to wear a HANS device - its not simple these days!

This is something that came up at the HFF2000 AGM and I mentioned that, observing the photos I have been taking during the year and having read a couple of helmet manufacturer comments about their latest products, it seems to me that helmets are getting bigger and for many people seem also to be sitting higher on the head. (This might just be bad fitting?

That suggests the possibility that something as simple as a new helmet might move a car/driver combination from acceptance to ineligibility (depending how far the driver can 'shrink' in the car when checked).

Furthermore I would assume that higher hoops imply the use of different tubular specifications and revised supports (where fitted) that might well significantly change the chassis characteristics both for 'safety' (allowing for whatever was thought acceptable in its day) and performance.

I would guess that there is some potential for a spiral of changes being mandated as one new change brings something else into focus. Whether the benefits justify the effort I have no idea.

Does anyone have any views?

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

A small one; this year the roll hoop for 1960 on cars must be 2 inches above the drivers helmeted head - and the little add on extensions DO NOT count as part of the 2 inches....

I wasn't aware this was anything new, it's certainly been so for my car (1974) ever since I've been racing it and that's 11 years.

[midgetman]

It's not just 2" above the helmeted head is it? The head must be 2" below a line running from the roll bar down to the next main structure, so if you don't have a front cage, that's probably the dash hoop which is little more than knee height. Which could be an issue for short legged drivers.

If the extensions don't count what do tall drivers do, Simon? New rear cages?

I've found some pics of me racing an open MG in the 80s with the top of my hat over the top of the cage. IIRC my right knee was out past the door bars too, so if a roll over didn't break my neck a T bone would smash my kneecap!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by midgetman

If the extensions don't count what do tall drivers do, Simon? New rear cages?

They've never counted, we've just always got away with it so best keep quiet about it.

[Simon Hadfield]

[QUOTE=midgetman;3004481]It's not just 2" above the helmeted head is it? The head must be 2" below a line running from the roll bar down to the next main structure, so if you don't have a front cage, that's probably the dash hoop which is little more than knee height. Which could be an issue for short legged drivers.

If the extensions don't count what do tall drivers do, Simon? New rear cages?

The rule is 50mm measured vertically to a "horizontal line" drawn from the top of the roll hoop. If there is any doubt ask - in the UK I guess this will not be taken too literally - I know that at Monaco and other overseas events it will be enforced. It is unfortunate that the MSA is very poor at passing this kind of information to the competitor, if you compare their efforts with some of the other ASNs we are rather floundering about in the dark!

I would make the point that there are some roll hoops that are under scrutiny at the moment - ask Alan Raine why he modified his PRS in period - ask poor Phil Lloyd if he would rather have had better roll hoop rules, or Simon Frostick. I know that there are always unfortunate accidents but when we do know better then it is cavalier in the extreme to do nothing, surely?

[Simon Hadfield]

And Grant, if there is a performance enhancement from the remanufacture of the roll over protection then so be it - personally I don't see it but you never know. The idea is that you simply (more or less) make what you have but to a legal set of dimensions - it is not putting a Sprint car cage on a Delta!

[rogerwills]

The hoop on my Cooper saved my life at Portimao. The car didn't have one when I got it but we had a good one made. Not something to cut corners with!!

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The rule is 50mm measured vertically to a "horizontal line" drawn from the top of the roll hoop.

Ah, OK, my misunderstanding then. Agree that the cage can't be skimped, having hung upside down from my belts! I'd never run a road sports or saloon without a front hoop as well as a rear. I just wondered what you do with tall guys in single seaters, suppose you build a bespoke one.

I struggle enough in the 924,I've got to drop the seat down still further.

[Tim Falce]

I've got this problem with mine, I've been debating whether to drop the seat down even more or fit a taller hoop.

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I believe a fair amount of pressure is being put upon the MSA to align with the FIA rules - at Monaco for example they don't invent any new rules they just apply the FIA rules precisely - as we here in the UK don't this always causes grief! Most of the new safety rules are common sense and I would like to think (but realistically doubt it) that the MSA, through the various clubs would make every one aware of the changes. A small one; this year the roll hoop for 1960 on cars must be 2 inches above the drivers helmeted head - and the little add on extensions DO NOT count as part of the 2 inches....other countries have their idiosyncrasies, for example in France a later than 1977 single seater driver HAS to wear a HANS device - its not simple these days!

I totally agree with Simon.
The diatribe against the French and Stand 21 is silly.
The ACM and certain French clubs such as the ACO make it clear that the run FIA sanctioned events and apply the rules, simple as that and no froggie Stand 21 benefit.
The English chose to ignore some of these rules and complain when this gets them into trouble.
A racer these days should read the pre regulations, especially at Monaco and Le Mans where so much money and effort has been invested.
And - at least once in a while - the yellow and blue books..
You can do it on the internet for free these days as far as I know.

A little known fact:
Red gloves are/were mandatory under FIA rules in open cars to make drivers signals more visible when stalling on the grid
I read it once but havnt checked lately as I own red gloves...

Rollover hoops.
I totally agree with Roger,
I have a bent and battered rollover hoop that saved me from serious injury when somebody was launched over me. Rater the hoop then my shoulder blades.
As to the hight:
I the spine is pushed into the base of the scull, it only takes a fraction of an inch to crack the skull base. That is a serious and life threatening injury.
A rollover hoop that is too low is allmost worthless in terms of protection.
I know that the medical statt in the incident unit is horrified when they see low hoops as they know what this really means.
They dont blow the whistle on the drivers, but ask them....
I get a decent taylormade strong one piece and sufficiently high hoop made for every car that I race, apart from pre wars.


Rudolf

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

And Grant, if there is a performance enhancement from the remanufacture of the roll over protection then so be it - personally I don't see it but you never know. The idea is that you simply (more or less) make what you have but to a legal set of dimensions - it is not putting a Sprint car cage on a Delta!

I was not thinking so much about performance enhancing track speed, rather changing something else about the design of the chassis (or other components that might come into play if used for support mounting for example) that fundamentally changed something about the way the original design was intended to work. Might there be negative performance effects for other areas in both use and in the event of an incident? Or more specifically might increased hoop height and altered fore and/or aft bracing, taken alone, increase a risk of collapse (or crumple or whatever) elsewhere? Has that been fully considered as part of the regulation change? I would certainly hope so.

I would be somewhat ironic if an increased helmet size, implemented for reasons of safety led to modifications to cars that could not be certain to be improvements in all situations.

One thing that is evident is that for many historic categories the size of the drivers fitting into the cars has frequently grown in line with observed population trends. This applies to width at least as much as to height. Should we expect regulation in that area soon?

[Alan Raine]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I would make the point that there are some roll hoops that are under scrutiny at the moment - ask Alan Raine why he modified his PRS in period - ask poor Phil Lloyd if he would rather have had better roll hoop rules, or Simon Frostick. I know that there are always unfortunate accidents but when we do know better then it is cavalier in the extreme to do nothing, surely?

We changed the roll hoop on the PRS after Simon Frostick's accident. We witnessed how he flipped and decided straight away to change the roll hoop asap. The PRS, like many cars at the time, had support bars front and back with a single hoop on top. Unfortunately, as in Simon's case, the top hoop folded over resulting in severe spinal injuries. My earlier PRS had done the same thing at Silverstone with it's previous owner and although he ended up in hospital he recovered, possibly because he was quite short in stature. I've also seen at least 2 Van Dieman RF78's loose the top of their roll bars.

We left the old hoop in place but added another one behind, welded together at the top and to each of the top rails of the chassis. Much like an Royale RP26.

Off topic: Does anyone know the whereabouts of Simon Frostick? We visited him a couple of times in Stoke Mandeville, but have not heard anything about him after he left there.

[midgetman]

Woah Rudolf, you misinterpret my warped sense of humour, this is no diatribe and twice this week I have written "i can't understand why the MSA don't fully adopt FIA rules for clothing."

I too am a survivor thanks to a full roll cage. I have swapped my racing car because I could no longer fit me, HANS device and the latest spec seat underneath the cage safely. I am asking what tall drivers do in single seaters because i am 1.85m and would like to race a s/seater! There is no suggestion that the rules are wrong, but looking for info on how to comply.

This thread all started when we commented on drivers at Pau who were not wearing gloves when the whole of the continent (rightly) normally enforces FIA rules strictly. I apologise if my sense of humour offends.

As an aside, I don't think it's RED gloves you have to wear in an open car, it's CONTRASTING gloves.

Max

Edit - Appendix L says drivers of single seater racing cars undertaking standing starts must wear gloves in a high visibility colour that contrasts with the predominant colour of the car. Hope your gloves are hi-vis red!

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Woah Rudolf, you misinterpret my warped sense of humour, this is no diatribe and twice this week I have written "i can't understand why the MSA don't fully adopt FIA rules for clothing."

I too am a survivor thanks to a full roll cage. I have swapped my racing car because I could no longer fit me, HANS device and the latest spec seat underneath the cage safely. I am asking what tall drivers do in single seaters because i am 1.85m and would like to race a s/seater! There is no suggestion that the rules are wrong, but looking for info on how to comply.

This thread all started when we commented on drivers at Pau who were not wearing gloves when the whole of the continent (rightly) normally enforces FIA rules strictly. I apologise if my sense of humour offends.

As an aside, I don't think it's RED gloves you have to wear in an open car, it's CONTRASTING gloves.

Max

Edit - Appendix L says drivers of single seater racing cars undertaking standing starts must wear gloves in a high visibility colour that contrasts with the predominant colour of the car. Hope your gloves are hi-vis red!

Hi Max,
thanx for clearup re glove colour.
We learn something every day....

I agree that I got a bit carried away with the "diatribe" wording. I take that back and lets a chuckle....
I have just heard it too many times that the French are out to get the poor Brits over red tape in racing, that has made me perhaps a little thin skinned.
I leant out my in date and complete fireproofs at Monaco 2008 about 5 times to to other guys with incomplete or out of date stuff.
In one case instead of a simple "thank You" I got treated to the big French conspiracy lecture.......

Rudolf
Bring on the season, I am getting itchy....

[midgetman]

Haha Rudolf, I get accused of the same thing when I take my shop to local events so I am a perfect person to "cast the first stone"!

Are you going to Race Retro or will you be racing at Silverstone Classic? If so we must meet and I will try and sell you some hi vis gloves