Grand Passione Classic, Donington, 19/20 April

[rbs]

As Alan has stated I was only there on Sunday and I was genuinley disapointed with the meeting. The first race of the day was 30 minutes to long, not enough cars on other grids, they may have been damaged on Saturday and could not take part but at least they were still in the paddock.
With out going over old ground there were to many continuation cars,replicas or fakes call them what you like, they should be in the 750mc sports and gt series rather than a genuine historic meeting.

[Podd37]

rbs, I don't wish to start a row over the eligibility of some cars but as both a competitor and spectator it has to be said I couldn't care less about the 'history' of a car. If there were nothing but so called genuine cars at Donnington the grids would have been even smaller! And I struggled to find any difference between the continuation Lola T70's and the real ones. These cars were being driven well, in terrible conditions (esp on Sunday), by guys that spend huge money entertaining us. My friend that came with me is a big modern F1 fan, had never seen an historic event before and was last seen on sunday night trying to buy tickets for the Silverstone classic. Thats what these events do, give guys like that a chance to see cars they heard about. He was astounded by how much the cars moved around, the lack of protection etc. He couldn't care less that the cars were built yesterday or 50 yrs ago.

[jellison]

Who thinks up these names for events - "Grand Passione Classic".

The guy HAS to have a Cravat or a Tweed Jacket.

[a.bart]

if you dont care about the history of a car i have a fake GT40 that is yours for £500000

[Jimbob-18]

Originally Posted by rbs

As Alan has stated I was only there on Sunday and I was genuinley disapointed with the meeting. The first race of the day was 30 minutes to long, not enough cars on other grids, they may have been damaged on Saturday and could not take part but at least they were still in the paddock.
With out going over old ground there were to many continuation cars,replicas or fakes call them what you like, they should be in the 750mc sports and gt series rather than a genuine historic meeting.

If you disliked it so much, why did you attend? It was clear from the star what would be racing. If you don't like it, don't go. But if you do go, don't moan, there was some very impressive machinery there that may be in very limited numbers, for example the Ferrari Dino F1 i heard was more than £10 million and that was the only one left.

Also, on the Proto 70 discussion, from redgate the opening part of the race was great, about 4 different leader changes all in 4 laps at redgate, and The Gitains car, The Gulf Mirage and another car were getting really close before the Gulf Mirage dissapeared.

Overall it was a great day, very interesting cars about, and really it anoys me that people moan after seeing some very famous cars race, just be happy what you saw. Of course the racing on saturday may be better than sunday, it was raining, cold and foggy on Sunday for Pete's sake! They aren't gonna race the tyres off some 10 million pound car in the wet are they?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Podd37

rbs, I don't wish to start a row over the eligibility of some cars but as both a competitor and spectator it has to be said I couldn't care less about the 'history' of a car. If there were nothing but so called genuine cars at Donnington the grids would have been even smaller! And I struggled to find any difference between the continuation Lola T70's and the real ones. These cars were being driven well, in terrible conditions (esp on Sunday), by guys that spend huge money entertaining us. My friend that came with me is a big modern F1 fan, had never seen an historic event before and was last seen on sunday night trying to buy tickets for the Silverstone classic. Thats what these events do, give guys like that a chance to see cars they heard about. He was astounded by how much the cars moved around, the lack of protection etc. He couldn't care less that the cars were built yesterday or 50 yrs ago.

Totally agree with you Podd37. But be careful, the Originality Police lurk (or own) this bit of the forum and you may receive an unwelcome visitor.

Regards

Jim

[John Turner]

Ok, Saturday was good, sunday was not so good; my apologies if my reaction to rbs post was too strong. How many 'continuation' cars were there, and are we actually talking mainly about World Sportscar Masters? If so, the programme highlights them which is a good move. If accurate, then 6 of the 9 T70's were genuine and 4 of the 5 B16s genuine, so the meeting was not exactly awash with them then! I also note that all the 250Fs (3 of them) in the pre 61 GP race were Cameron M cars. Although they have gained a degree of respectability, they did not race in period either. Where are all the original 250s, these days? One other I can highlight, is Wolfgang Friedrichs Aston, which continues to be entered as DP214 with no qualification, unlike those we have mentioned above which were all identified as non original in the programme.

I do care about the history of cars (I wouldn't spend so much time on these history forums, if it were otherwise), and whilst understanding your friend's point of view, Podd37, I'm a little less certain of yours. No, I can't tell visually the difference between an original T70 or a continuation version but it is the history and provenance of a car that is an important part of its make up and that of historic racing. If we had a grid full of continuation cars, what part of that scenario would be historic racing, and how could we relate any of the individual cars to events of the past? My understanding is that organisers, for the most part, give preference to cars with a racing history, only allowing 'continuation' cars to make up numbers.

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by JimW

Totally agree with you Podd37. But be careful, the Originality Police lurk (or own) this bit of the forum and you may receive an unwelcome visitor.

Regards

Jim

Jim, I'm a bit surprised at your admission, but you well know that all are welcome here, to discuss these matters provided it is constructive.

[terence]

Absolutely agree with both of the above post's John.I must admit to being a little surprised to see continuation cars out there at all.Perhaps it was a result of poor entrys that they were allowed in.?. Oh,and I'm one of the first to admit to being one of the "Originality Police",and proud of the fact that I do not have an interest in anything fake!.

[The Flagman]

Surely after all these years it would be hard to find any components that had the DNA of the car as originally raced - it would probably be at risk from metal fatigue and unsafe to race. From an engineering point of view there can be little difference between "true historics" and "continuations".

Provenance seeems to me to be an imaginary concept that some of the original car's history is carried somewhere in its soul. Most likely in its chassis plate, vehicle log and price tag when brought to market! There are few collectables that have so little traceable original material in them as old cars. Wonder what they would think of the Mona Lisa with a fresh paint job?

From a racing point of view as long as the cars are equally matched then does it really matter? We are committed to a style of racing between more refined folk who race for fun and are not looking for headlines or career moves. Long may it continue. If we have to manufacture a few more cars to meet the requirement for numbers then so be it.

If a car's history is that important it would have to be preserved in its original form and kept from destruction/wear & tear in a museum and I don't think there are too many of us that would support that.

Thought that occurred to me over the weekend was just how strong the performance of the Lolas and Chevrons must have seemed in their day - not exactly slow now are they! Running on less safe tracks, without modern safety support the drivers must have been very brave or just daft.
When I looked at the cars in the Paddock and Pitlane I thought how kind 40 years had been to them as compared with my own appearance and capability 40 yrs on!

Is there any readily available film footage of the cars racing when new? Any clues to sources much appreciated.

[Podd37]

Maybe I sounded too glib for I do agree that if a grid can be made up of so called real cars then they should get preference. Thats obvious. But as a spectator I and I suspect many like me, spend my money to see cars racing. With full grids. The only race I didn't even bother watching after the first couple of laps was proto 70's simply because there wasn't enough cars. And yes I do know its early days etc but I still left them to it. I have spent my life around racing cars and appreciate the history very much but I want to see racing. If a guy whose car is valued at say a couple of million decides his car is too valuable (and who can blame him) and he wont race it anymore we loose the sight and essence of that car. A perfect racing replica lets us see what the car was like. And marking the cars as such in the program is a great idea.
Sorry for taking the thread this direction.....I still loved the weekend!

[John Turner]

Well, we've covered these issues in some detail before, as a search through old threads will reveal.

However, provenance is not an imaginery concept, since it exists as documented history. I agree that it is different from originality and, again as often discussed before, the principle of George Washington's axe applies. Parts need to be replaced and cars rebuilt, there's no denying that. The point about continuation cars is that they are built to satisfy a demand; they are built purely as a commercial enterprise. They are new; not historic. Some people are comfortable with that, others not.

I am aware that we are deflecting from the thread topic here, so it would be good to hear from any others who attended, and particularly from those like johngee, who were directly involved in its organisation.

[TFHarv]

I'm the first to admit that I probably should leave this section of ten tenths alone until I have been circuit side for at least 25 years but until I was shown the differences on Sunday between the "real thing" and replicas ( or continuations ) I had no idea they were racing anything different

After listening to the passion and excitement expressed on the day thou I have to admit to being struck with a bit more of the bug and wanting to look more closely into the history of what is racing in front of me.

I would say, even if i was an expert and could identify the reals from fakes just by the headlights or gearbox noise I would still want to see the replicas out there if just to make up numbers and give a good showing for the races.

If so required it could be run as 2 series in the same race - real v replicas and scored accordingly.

I totally enjoyed looking at what did get on the track and was in awe of the knowledge that was around me. Even down to knowing that one of the cars had put the wrong livery on the car against the name

The fact that some of the cars out on circuit had been driven years before, in force, for championships and were being driven round at still amazing speeds is testament to what the series is trying to achieve and if the experts know the difference between the real thing and replicas is it really taking anything away from the racing?

[rbs]

The continuation/replica argument will go on for a long time but if if we do not have historic cars racing at historic festivals what is the point of having the festival. I personally volunteered to marshal at this meeting because I saw these cars in their heyday and as TFHarv says, I believe I have a good knowledge of the vehicles on view, unlike Podd37 who thinks a Tasman Ferrari is a grand prix car (Where does he say that, exactly? - JT).I really wanted this to be a cracking good meeting I was just disappointed with it. As I said above it may be that many cars broke down on Saturday and I was just unfortunate to miss them.
I really can not see any reason to accept continuation cars when there is an acceptable series for them to run in and those who want to see these Cobra's, GT40's, T70's and Crossle's should watch the Sports and GT series at 750 meetings and leave the real cars to the festivals.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by rbs

,unlike Podd37 who thinks a Tasman Ferrari is a grand prix car.

Did I say that????
Personal insults will get you everywhere!
I'm off to a friendlier thread.

Stick with us, mate - see above - JT

[John Turner]

Ok, I've now copied the relevant posts (except the last 3 because they were posted after I did the work!) regarding continuation cars from here to the thread below. Although long, it may prove an interesting read. Any further discussion on this, please continue it there, and save this thread for the event itself:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82729

[rbs]

My appologies to Podd37, it was Jimbob-18 with the wrong identity of the Ferrari

[John Turner]

This Ferrari is an interesting one. In fact I think that you will find that it actually is a GP car but fitted with a 3-litre sportscar Testa Rossa engine and thus would comply with the old Tasman series. However, and I stand to be corrected on all counts, it was originally fitted with a proper 2.5 GP engine. It was only later that it was fitted with the 3-litre and in recent years campaigned very effectively by Nigel Corner until his nasty accident at Goodwood made him take the understandable decison to retire from single seater open wheeled racing (in fact, ultimately, all racing). The car was then sold to Tony Smith, who then, I believe over the winter of 2006/2007, installed an original 2.5. Although he found it much to his liking, I believe there were reliability issues and he had to reinstall the 3 litre. Of course, this may all be a figment of my imagination but I don't think I dreamt it up!

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Jimbob-18

Also, on the Proto 70 discussion, from redgate the opening part of the race was great, about 4 different leader changes all in 4 laps at redgate, and The Gitains car, The Gulf Mirage and another car were getting really close before the Gulf Mirage dissapeared.

Yeah, sorry about that, I think my exact words were
"I'll tell you what, you have to wait a while for them to appear, but when they do it's a really good battle"

5 seconds later one slowed-up at McLeans.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by terence bower

One thing I have to do is to say a Big Thankyou to everyone in race control,

Terry, On behalf of everyone in Race Control...we thank you!, its not a lot of fun sitting in a car (regardless of it being an M3) waiting for hopefully nothing to happen...(although you were warmer than the girls and boys in orange!)and we wouldnt let you smoke either!!

You did us proud...its always nice to see you at meetings...now I can say ...its nice working with you at one

Thanks again

[terence]

Pleasure Claire,I'm glad there was not much to do,but when there was,I must admit ,IT WAS FUN!.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Pleasure Claire,I'm glad there was not much to do,but when there was,I must admit ,IT WAS FUN!.

Good...Im glad you and most enjoyed it, we couldnt fix the weather but the rest was not bad at all

rbs....Im sorry you didn't have such a good time....you are not mad at me cause I never got the PA system turned up are ya?...I did try honest x

[Jimbob-18]

Originally Posted by Asp

Yeah, sorry about that, I think my exact words were
"I'll tell you what, you have to wait a while for them to appear, but when they do it's a really good battle"

5 seconds later one slowed-up at McLeans.

Ahh right, sorry. But as i say, brilliant race till everyone dissapeared. Does anyone know what happend to the Gulf Mirage, as i say, it was getting very close to the leader at Redgate, then dissapeared when they came around next time. It was unclear what happened, all we heard was "....Yellow Flags......" which i presume was for the Gulf Mirage. Anyone care to clear this mystery up?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by John Turner

. . . but you well know that all are welcome here, to discuss these matters provided it is constructive.

Of course they are - hence the smilies. But this is not my first 'dig' at this issue on here so I'm surprised you're surprised.

As long as the cars are described honestly so there is no deceit I don't really mind whether they are totally 'genuine' or not. It is the spectacle of fast cars and close racing which I really enjoy. Yes an interesting history adds a bit to the paddock view but I rarely seem to get time for that these days.

Regards

Jim

[johngee]

Originally Posted by John Turner

I am aware that we are deflecting from the thread topic here, so it would be good to hear from any others who attended, and particularly from those like johngee, who were directly involved in its organisation.

It's a bit difficult for me to give an unbiased view - without being pretentious as to my role, it's rather like being the host of a party - everybody has a great time and all you do it make sure everybody's glass is full and throw away the empties! .
However, I thought it was a great meeting and the feedback from the majority of competitors and marshals has been pretty positive. I think it has the potential to be Donington's answer to the Silverstone Classic, the two Brands Hatch historic meetings and the Oulton Park Gold Cup but, of course, in April you're always a hostage to the weather, as we were this year.
I thought the driving standards were excellent - Ian Ashley who has driven Donington just a few(!) times in his career, said he'd never known the circuit so slippery and yet there were very few serious 'offs' and instances of damage - Terry Bower had little opportunity to show off his skill in the M3 safety car....although a certain young lady in the other black Beemer pace car showed me how DSC can keep you out of the Redgate gravel trap - just! .
The Saturday evening over 2 litre sportscar race I thought was magical - it was a long day but that made it all worthwhile.
That the meeting was an organisational success was down to the best possible team in British motor racing - I really mean that - look in the programe to see who they were and I claim no personal credit - it's like the OBE - other bu**ers efforts!
All credit to Masters and the HGPCA, not forgetting the Ferrari Owners Club, for establishing a culture of driving and sportsmanship which meant we had one minor judicial in 16 races - not many meetings can claim that!
I hope those who were there in whatever capacity enjoyed it as much as we did.