Lotus 59 & 69

[Chris Townsend]

Matter of time I suppose, but we've not had much discussion of this staple of early 70s F3 and Atlantic.

Can someone help me with information about the Lotus 69 and the difference between the 1970 and 71 models [designated 71/69 on the chassis plate]. First question is was the 1970 model a space-frame and the 71 model something else – I presume a plated space-frame rather than a monocoque.

I’m trying to work out the histories of Lotus 69s in Atlantic and FB [not helped by many 59s used in the formula being updated to 69 spec. My chief interest at the moment is in Ian Mawby’s cars used in Britain.

In 1972 Mawby uses an ex Wisell 1971 car which was built to F.B spec but used in F2, [71/69.FB.8] but at a Libre race at Brands in November he ‘writes off’ the car at the start. However the following week he’s back for another Libre race. In MN 14.12.72 Mawby says that he won in ‘the ex Wisell spaceframe that he completed after his start line shunt the previous weekend’. Given that he is talking about a replacement car, which is also ‘ex Wisell’, are we talking about him using another Wisell car rather than his 1971 model?
Funnily enough this was available for him because Stephen Choularton had used in Atlantic in 1972 Wisell’s first 1971 car [69.F2.1] [described as ex Fittipaldi – who used it in 1970 – and Pau winner, Wisell 1971 – and had it for sale from mid October 1972. This would be the earlier type of the car, and presumably a spaceframe where the other wasn't [exactly...]

Which ever car it is Mawby has another really big accident at Snetterton in 73 and the remains were sold to John Bicht who used them as the basis of his Swift [perhaps John can confirm this] and eventually taken to the USA.

Reminiscences, observations, complete Lotus build records all appreciated.

Chris

[davemorganfan]

Now I'm by no means an expert, so take everything I say with a health warning attached.

The spaceframe 69s used from in F3 and Atlantic '71 onwards were, I think, essentially the same as the 1970 version. They looked a bit different as the external profile of the chassis was altered to accomodate bag-type fuel tanks (the same thing happened with Brabham when they updated the BT28 to become the BT35).

F2 cars were, of course, something else. They were monocoque from 1970 onwards. That was the true 69, and it was for F2 only (until later life). The other 69s were really updated 59s. It always struck me as being a bit odd that the spaceframe jobs were suddenly called 69s by virtue of acquiring the pointy front end and other new body work from the monocoque car. Perhaps there were some other changes too, but I suspect they were not very substantial. And does anyone remember the Formula Ford version - as won in a competition by one Tiff Needell?

I saw Steve Choularton's car at an Atlantic race at Oulton. My memory of things from those days is fading fast, but I am ALMOST certain it looked like the monocoque 69, which was rounded in shape and not the angular re-tanked spaceframe type as described above. So it seems like a pukka ex-F2 car, and quite possibly ex-Wissel, Fittipaldi or whatever.

[Chris Townsend]

DMF

Choularton's car was certainly ex F2, run in 1969 and 70, so would then have been a monocoque. The Wisell car run by LIRA later in 1970 was built originally as FB, so might have been a spaceframe. This was the first [and perhaps only] car used by Mawby. What you say suggests that if he did build a new car, he didn't do so from the Choularton car, which is perhaps, then, the Don Robinson hillclimb car.

Chris

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Reminiscences, observations, complete Lotus build records all appreciated.

Does that mean you have partial Lotus build records? I have a few bits I'd be happy to transcribe if they would be helpful.

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Can anyone provide chassis information about a Lotus 69-F2 fitted with a 2.0 Ford BDG and driven by Clive Astley at Longridge sprint on 18/06/78?

It is the only Lotus 69 to have taken part in the British Sprint Championship!

Ta!

[Ted Walker]

Did not Chris Morris use a 69 in sprints and hill climbs/????? I think it was the Moonaker car.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Ted - I think you are right. I seem to remember it had the full Moonraker body work. As per previous post on this thread the Astley 69 is the only one to compete in the British Sprint Championship (i.e. Morris never registered).

[jamesl]

Is this the same Chris Morris who raced in monoposto in the early 1980's in the exCarlo Giorgio/Terry Mills March?

[Ted Walker]

Yes the same chap.Was rebuilding a 911 last time we spoke.

[allenbrown]

Just to bring this back to life, here's a link to an older Lotus 69 thread on TNF.

Chris - any chance of an update on where you've got to?

Allen

[John Turner]

Albert Clement's Lotus 69 at Brands Superprix, 6 May, 2006

[Bryan Miller]

Oh goodie, now I get to decipher all my notes from bits and pieces and stuff from Allen and Chris and enter it in a coherent form.
Yes please keep the 59's away from the 69's .

[allenbrown]

I've just started to reach Lotus 69 territory in the libre research and have found an interesting comment tucked away in the report (AS 23 Jul 1970 p45) on the Ingliston libre on 19 July 1970. It says that "Johnny Blades was having trouble with his now 69-ised F2 Lotus". So how many F2 Lotuses did he have?!

Allen

[David Muter]

John Blades bought the Moonraker 69 then sold it to Andy Barton, then it passed into my hands, I can vouch that it was the original Fittipaldi car and was used in the Temporada series in S America

[allenbrown]

A good picture of the car Autosport 13 Aug 1970 p23. Race Report 1970 has a typo over the chassis number of Blades 59B when it appeared early in 1970 but I assume the number 59-F2-21 in F1R can be relied upon. I'll keep a close eye on Blades' libre entries from here on.

I know a second opinion is always useful so, as I'm in here anyway, Race Report gives the 1970 Lotus 69s as:
Fittipaldi 69-F2-1
Ikuzawa 69-F2-2
Potocki 69-F2-3
Rindt and Solor-Roig 69-F2-4

Allen

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

A good picture of the car Autosport 13 Aug 1970 p23. Race Report 1970 has a typo over the chassis number of Blades 59B when it appeared early in 1970 but I assume the number 59-F2-21 in F1R can be relied upon. I'll keep a close eye on Blades' libre entries from here on.

I know a second opinion is always useful so, as I'm in here anyway, Race Report gives the 1970 Lotus 69s as:
Fittipaldi 69-F2-1
Ikuzawa 69-F2-2
Potocki 69-F2-3
Rindt and Solor-Roig 69-F2-4

Allen

Did wilson Fittipaldi also drive Chassis 69-F2-1?

I have a feeling this went on to Johnny Blades as I seem to remember it at Thruxton.

[RDV]

Fast rewind into memory lane...The two chassis initialy used by Team Bardhal-Fittipaldi were the ex-Hill and ex-Rindt chassis, fresh off the boat (deck -cargo!) from the South American series in 1970, sold to them by Mr.Ecclestone together with the ex-Brabham F1 transporter.Wilson's was 69.F2.4(ex-Rindt), raced by Enzo Corti at Bogota for Jochen Rindt Racing, and Emerson's was 69.F2.5(ex-Hill).

For Pau Emerson had a new car 71.14.F2(also quoted as 71/69.5.F2, this was a result of the common, at the time, juggling of chassi numbers to match the RAC and ATA carnets required to cross frontiers, we all used to have spare chassi plates and a set of stamps to do this), so new that the engine was fitted on the kerb in front of Cosworth, bodywork fitted at the docks in Dover and finished in an all-nighter in the rain at Pau paddock...this was to lead to a fraught qualy session and subsequent DNF due to loose wheel bearings during race, while wilson DNQ due to chronic electrical problems, corrosion related, a legacy of the return from Bogota as deck-cargo.

This car went on to win Jarama and Crystal Palace, by which time Wilson had received his new March 712.

The Imola race in july was notable in that Wilsons March had the first application of an airbox in the induction system in F2, which took him to second place in the first heat, but caused a jammed throttle in the second head as it began to disintegrate..this led to a small off road excursion three laps from the end as he was leading...

[Simon Hadfield]

Re airboxes in F2, Jimmy's Lotus 48 had one in 1967.....

[RHONA]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

Did wilson Fittipaldi also drive Chassis 69-F2-1?

I have a feeling this went on to Johnny Blades as I seem to remember it at Thruxton.

I am writing a book on my father in law. Johhny Blades.
perhaps he can help you with any questions you might like to ask.

[RHONA]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

A good picture of the car Autosport 13 Aug 1970 p23. Race Report 1970 has a typo over the chassis number of Blades 59B when it appeared early in 1970 but I assume the number 59-F2-21 in F1R can be relied upon. I'll keep a close eye on Blades' libre entries from here on.

I know a second opinion is always useful so, as I'm in here anyway, Race Report gives the 1970 Lotus 69s as:
Fittipaldi 69-F2-1
Ikuzawa 69-F2-2
Potocki 69-F2-3
Rindt and Solor-Roig 69-F2-4

Allen

I am Rhona -Johnny Blades daughter in law. I am writing a book on his racing.
I'm sure if you have any question he would love to talk.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by RHONA

I am Rhona -Johnny Blades daughter in law. I am writing a book on his racing.
I'm sure if you have any question he would love to talk.

Than would be great Rhona. Can you contact me at allen@oldracingcars.com to discuss?

[johnbicht]

Has anyone seen a Lotus 69 that had a narrowed track, with straight lower frame tubes, a March nose, 1600 BDA FT200? It has probably - if it still exists - been returned to original configuration. I would love to know about this.

I can fill in considerable detail about it's history.

[BMW Pete]

Just found this great thread - thank you to all the contributors, great read.

My car Vin 69 F2 5 was the works (Jochen Rindt )Graham Hill/John Miles car and I purchased directly from Pete Lovely's daughter upon Pete's passing in 2011. As many may already know, Pete installed a Formula One-specification, 3.0L Cosworth DFV V8 engine and ran it in the USA and Canadian Grand Prixs in 1971.

My understanding from Pete and his family was this car was bought direct from Bernie Ecclestone as Bernie was not only a partner with Jochen Rindt, but a manager as well - oh how the mighty grow from such humble beginnings :-). So it would seem natural that Bernie was the seller after Jochen's sad passing.

I do have plenty of pictures of the car when in Pete's hands later in life, but I would love to find some period pictures of Graham Hill and or John Miles in the car in 1970 or even Pete's 1971 Grand Prix exploits.

I have just found this one at Paul Ricard in 1970, which caused me to start searching again and found this page

Thanks in advance

Peter Gleeson

[allenbrown]

The 1971 Mallory F2 report said that Wilson F "has bought the ex-Rindt chassis and will run it as a privateer this year". So that would be 69-F2-4.

Blades reemerges at a libre at Croft 30 August 1971, still with his 59/69 but now with a 1900cc Alan Smith FVC.

Allen

[allenbrown]

OK, this is odd. Bobby Howlings sells an "ex-Graham Hill" Lotus 69 to Brian Classick in Sep 1971. Classick races it once at Oulton Park in October.

Anyone know what that would be?

Allen

Ps Just spotted Classick advertising it as ex-Rindt 25 Nov 1971