Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Formula One


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 7 Aug 2019, 17:08 (Ref:3921828)   #106
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 18,118
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist View Post
The entire team except Dan had the knives out for Renault. They justified themselves by blaming Renault for all their woes. Now they can't say enough kind things about Honda, yet their competitive position has barely changed.
I'm not too sure about that. Compared to this time last year, after the Hungarian GP, Verstappen is 3rd in the WDC and Gasly 6th, while in 2018 Ricciardo was the only RBR driver in the top 5. So far, Verstappen has finished in every race, with 5 podiums. Last year he had 3 retirements and Ricciardo had 4. Gasly has retired once. Last year Verstappen had one win, this year he has 2 and got his first pole. RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 18:02 (Ref:3921835)   #107
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,293
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I'm not too sure about that. Compared to this time last year, after the Hungarian GP, Verstappen is 3rd in the WDC and Gasly 6th, while in 2018 Ricciardo was the only RBR driver in the top 5. So far, Verstappen has finished in every race, with 5 podiums. Last year he had 3 retirements and Ricciardo had 4. Gasly has retired once. Last year Verstappen had one win, this year he has 2 and got his first pole. RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.
Bah! Barely an improvement! Ban Honda. Bunch of do nothings.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 20:45 (Ref:3921852)   #108
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 9,116
Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!Akrapovic is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
RBR have 244 Constructor's points compared to 223.
I think that about sums it up. It has barely changed. It has improved a bit, but has it moved them up the championship order? Max has driven better, which for sure helps. The first pole position was at a track where traditionally RBR have been strong regardless of engine, and it's the circuit where the engine means the least.

RBR Honda is far from the disaster of the McLaren Honda. But it hasn't done much to move them up the grid yet. Replaced the engine, stayed about the same? Well, maybe the car is a bigger issue than RBR care to admit. Like a slightly less silly very of McLaren.

Side note: This is another reason the pandering to engine manufacturers is a bad thing. Thanks to these ridiculous expensive engines, the lack of choice of motors makes it harder to judge cars since it takes years for a team to move due to the lack of options.
Akrapovic is online now  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 20:47 (Ref:3921853)   #109
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 18,118
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
I think that about sums it up. It has barely changed. It has improved a bit, but has it moved them up the championship order? Max has driven better, which for sure helps. The first pole position was at a track where traditionally RBR have been strong regardless of engine, and it's the circuit where the engine means the least.

RBR Honda is far from the disaster of the McLaren Honda. But it hasn't done much to move them up the grid yet. Replaced the engine, stayed about the same? Well, maybe the car is a bigger issue than RBR care to admit. Like a slightly less silly very of McLaren.

Side note: This is another reason the pandering to engine manufacturers is a bad thing. Thanks to these ridiculous expensive engines, the lack of choice of motors makes it harder to judge cars since it takes years for a team to move due to the lack of options.
I think the results from both drivers, compared to last year, says otherwise.
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 21:15 (Ref:3921861)   #110
gert
Veteran
 
gert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Belgium
Antwerp
Posts: 4,382
gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
I think the results from both drivers, compared to last year, says otherwise.
Nah, I think Akrapovic is right. 244 compared to 223 is nothing.
After 12 races, on average that difference is not even a point per driver per race.

Last year, Verstappen had a bad start to the season. Involved in too many accidents, like Bahrain, Baku ... None of these were Renault's error.
This year, he has a much better start, none of which has anything to do with Renault or Honda.

Just the Baku accident has cost them 22 points (4th and 5th) so that would make it 244-245.
gert is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 21:30 (Ref:3921862)   #111
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 3,293
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Beyond my "ban Honda" joke above, I am puzzled by the perspective that Honda has not had a positive impact at RBR. First the numbers.... are better, but feel free to ignore those if you don't like what they tell you.

I would ask (a harder question to answer)... Who is in ascendance right now? Honda or Renault? A year or two ago Honda would have been the wrong answer. Now... I would say Honda is.

My other argument is that at the end, the relationship between RBR and Renault was toxic. While everyone can say (and maybe rightly so) that RBR might turn and bite Honda at any moment... So far things are going swimmingly. That HAS to have a positive impact for both parties. Honda + McLaren and RBR + Renault (at the end) are two toxic relationships. I would say that all four organizations are in better places today given what I suspect is mostly positive partnerships. The looser here is Renault powered Renault.

Much of this is moot as the recent regulation changes for the cars has made it hard to compare year to year. Too many changing variables to reach strong conclusions.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 7 Aug 2019, 22:36 (Ref:3921867)   #112
gert
Veteran
 
gert's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Belgium
Antwerp
Posts: 4,382
gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!gert has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Honda + McLaren and RBR + Renault (at the end) are two toxic relationships. I would say that all four organizations are in better places today given what I suspect is mostly positive partnerships. The looser here is Renault powered Renault.
I surely agree on this.

I also agree that the '19 Honda engine is much better than the '17 version.

However, I don't think Red Bull has achieved anything that they would not have been able to achieve with Renault power.
Likewise, I have the feeling McLaren would more or less be where they are now - with a '19 Renault or a '19 Honda.

Comparing results is not fair, because there are too many variables at play (driver errors, management calls, bad luck, ...) that have nothing to do with the engine itself.

But that's just my view.
gert is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 00:38 (Ref:3921874)   #113
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 18,118
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by gert View Post
Nah, I think Akrapovic is right. 244 compared to 223 is nothing.
After 12 races, on average that difference is not even a point per driver per race.

Last year, Verstappen had a bad start to the season. Involved in too many accidents, like Bahrain, Baku ... None of these were Renault's error.
This year, he has a much better start, none of which has anything to do with Renault or Honda.

Just the Baku accident has cost them 22 points (4th and 5th) so that would make it 244-245.
I don't think 21 points is nothing, it's 21 points you don't have for whatever reason.

This year's good start compared to last year's bad start, could be down to a better chassis/engine combination. McLaren had problems with their chassis and fitting the Honda engine in it. Getting that combination right can affect the balance, as well as the handling of the car. and therefore a driver's performance.

It would seem Verstappen has the better package, hence his much better start to this season.
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 00:57 (Ref:3921875)   #114
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,589
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
If Ric was still in the other RBR then its not hard to imagine RBR to be right there with Ferrari...maybe even ahead of them on points.

I wonder how faster the RBR Honda was at Hungary vs last year with Renault... doesnt prove much but still an interesting number to measure improvement with.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
These are the days of miracle and wonder!
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 01:09 (Ref:3921876)   #115
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 18,118
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillibowl View Post
If Ric was still in the other RBR then its not hard to imagine RBR to be right there with Ferrari...maybe even ahead of them on points.

I wonder how faster the RBR Honda was at Hungary vs last year with Renault... doesnt prove much but still an interesting number to measure improvement with.
Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 01:40 (Ref:3921879)   #116
Oldtony
Veteran
 
Oldtony's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Australia
Gold Coast Australia
Posts: 1,642
Oldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridOldtony should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.
And that statement obviously ignores anothe variable, Weather
Oldtony is offline  
__________________
Geting old is mandatory, acting old is optional.
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 01:49 (Ref:3921880)   #117
bjohnsonsmith
Race Official
Veteran
 
bjohnsonsmith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
United States
London, England
Posts: 18,118
bjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famebjohnsonsmith will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldtony View Post
And that statement obviously ignores anothe variable, Weather
Not at all, the weather affected everyone's times.

Hamilton. Q1: 1:17.419. Q2: 1:31.242. Q3 1:35.658. Pole

Vettel. Q1: 1:16.666. Q2: 1:28.636. Q3 1:36.210. 4th

Grosjean. Q1: 1:17.901. Q2: 1:33.650. Q3: 1:40.593. 10th
bjohnsonsmith is offline  
__________________
"If you're not winning you're not trying."
Colin Chapman.
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 02:56 (Ref:3921886)   #118
HDTVKSS
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 509
HDTVKSS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ferrari isn't the force they were this year compared to last, so BRB has more or less been able to take better advantage of that.

It looks like the Honda is at least more reliable and i would say on the whole a better package. It looked like at the start of the year the car was maybe under aeroed but they seem to have caught that up now and its showing in the results. the thing that is holding RBR back at the moment is the Gasly factor, not the powerplant. I expect them to swap out that component soon enough.
HDTVKSS is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 03:21 (Ref:3921887)   #119
HDTVKSS
Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 509
HDTVKSS should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
With the KMag / Ric battle and the moving under braking allegations - im wondering if more drivers took a leaf out of the Verstappen book of "racecraft" this wouldn't happen as much.

Ie - im sending it and if you block me, were both going to have a crash. No one really plays those games with MV anymore and he seems to be given a lot of space by the driver now ( even though he took all that and more in Austria - but thats kind of my point).

Its not necessarily the racing I want to see but when you have someone like Kmag who is already under pressure for performance and Ric, whos in the 1st year of a contract, is it worth sending a few dodgy maneuvers that may or may not result in a safety car to build a bit of a reputation? of course on the flipside one doesn't want to be known as the modern Maldonado.

On the negative, hes probably looking to put in clean drives unlike the current incumbent in the outside chance of a Ferrari or Merc seat becoming available for him.
HDTVKSS is offline  
Quote
Old 8 Aug 2019, 17:13 (Ref:3921958)   #120
chillibowl
Veteran
 
chillibowl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Canada
winnipeg, canada
Posts: 6,589
chillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Famechillibowl will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith View Post
Max's times last year were, Q1: 1:16.940. Q2: 1:31.178. Q3: 1:38.032. Grid position 7th.

This year they were, Q1: 1:15.817. Q2: 1:15.573. Q3: 1:14.572. Grid position 1st.
thanks for looking that up.

obviously lots of variables from year to year but a little over 1 second faster in the Q1 times. weather, rules, and tires aside 1 second is not nothing.

doesnt prove much either though!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
I would ask (a harder question to answer)... Who is in ascendance right now? Honda or Renault? A year or two ago Honda would have been the wrong answer. Now... I would say Honda is.
agreed. RBR Honda seem to be on the up and buoyed by a driver line up that also has a rejuvenated Kvyat and racey Albon in the wings.

Mcalren has the driver line up and seem to be well on their way to sorting their chassis out but their supplier/works Renault team look to be completely lost.

i guess what im not sure of is are Renault's problems just with the race team/chassis or are their other problems in Viry-Chatillon?

just speculation, but at the least i would suspect that on the engine side they are being outspent.i question their ability to catch up in the short to medium term.
chillibowl is online now  
__________________
These are the days of miracle and wonder!
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
[Official] Bahrain Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 2 of 21 Born Racer Formula One 158 5 Apr 2019 19:56
[Official] Australian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 1 of 21 Born Racer Formula One 182 22 Mar 2019 15:30
[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2018: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 82 4 Aug 2018 07:31
[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2017 - Round 11 of 20 - Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 87 6 Aug 2017 21:25
[Official] Hungarian Grand Prix 2016: Grand Prix Weekend Thread Born Racer Formula One 97 27 Jul 2016 17:53


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 13:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.