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Old 26 Feb 2020, 13:02 (Ref:3959998)   #201
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Funnily enough, it did occur to me that Merc’s steering reminded me of active suspension
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Old 26 Feb 2020, 14:22 (Ref:3960009)   #202
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Active suspension virtually eliminates body roll and pitch variation in many driving situations including cornering, accelerating, and braking.
Exactly. So if you are optimizing your aero (and mechanical grip) WITHOUT active suspension you have to make it work in various conditions of pitch, roll, yaw and heave you end up with a compromise solution. An example is a bumpy track that may preclude having a stiffly sprung car will result in difficulty in controlling ride height or riding higher than you like to prevent bottoming out in some parts of the track.

If you are able to control those and either stop or significantly reduce them, then you can create a more optimal solution. To my example above, you can have a very consistent ride height (heave) as well as less dynamic movement (pitch, roll and yaw) that impacts the multi axis angle of attack of the car vs air. You still can't treat everything as straight line running, but it would help greatly.

I haven't mentioned this in a long time, but I felt that the 2021 regulations should have brought back active suspension as I fell it would remove much of the dynamic black magic/secret sauce that allows the well funded teams to do so well. My proposal was a spec ECU for the suspension, fixed number of related sensors and actuators and potentially using homologated actuators.

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Old 26 Feb 2020, 19:26 (Ref:3960058)   #203
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Testing means nothing BUT Kubica ends a session on the top of the charts. Yeah, low fuel and stickiest tires but still, below 1:17s

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Old 26 Feb 2020, 20:09 (Ref:3960067)   #204
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regardless of the setup situation, that's great for Kubica!

Williams on their 3rd Merc engine!!!

and what is up with Renault/Ocon? 74 laps and his best time was a 1:21.5 and over 3s slower then his team mate.

of course it is testing and the program he was running is unknown to us but something seems really off with that time.
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Old 28 Feb 2020, 11:45 (Ref:3960318)   #205
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Back in the old days active suspension was invented for one prime reason, to keep the car in a static state relative to the road surface so the aero worked at its maximum efficiency. This was during the era of sliding skirts and Alan Jones retired because the cars were so stiff it was affecting the drivers causing back problems etc. These days it would most probably be cheaper to allow it rather than use all the work arounds they do at the moment to try and keep the car level. It will be interesting next year because at the moment the high profile tyres form part of the suspension but with low profile tyres they will have to have working suspension or put the seats on suspension systems because the drivers will have major issues if the cars are rock hard on low profile tyres.
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Old 28 Feb 2020, 12:26 (Ref:3960327)   #206
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Back in the old days active suspension was invented for one prime reason, to keep the car in a static state relative to the road surface so the aero worked at its maximum efficiency. This was during the era of sliding skirts and Alan Jones retired because the cars were so stiff it was affecting the drivers causing back problems etc. These days it would most probably be cheaper to allow it rather than use all the work arounds they do at the moment to try and keep the car level. It will be interesting next year because at the moment the high profile tyres form part of the suspension but with low profile tyres they will have to have working suspension or put the seats on suspension systems because the drivers will have major issues if the cars are rock hard on low profile tyres.
That was during the ground-effect era. Sliding skirts were banned at the end of 198O for safety reasons, as cornering speeds became too high. The concern was, if the skirt was damaged by going over the rumble strip, whilst cornering for example, a sudden loss of downforce would cause the car to uncontrollably spin off.

To get round the ban, fixed skirts and an hydraulic system were used to lower the car's ride height than was legally allowed. Once the car had left the pits and was out on the track, the chassis was lowered, so the skirts could then operate at this lower height. This resulted in the cars being very stiffly sprung. These fixed skirts were eventually banned at the end of 1982.
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Old 28 Feb 2020, 14:17 (Ref:3960363)   #207
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I found this older article about how active suspension was on the table for 2021, but was discarded. Basically the reason was that if they allowed active suspension it would result in highly optimized aero that would have a narrow performance window and would put a risk a key criteria which is to allow cars to get close and pass each others.

https://www.racefans.net/2019/07/19/...nsion-in-2021/

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Old 28 Feb 2020, 15:47 (Ref:3960388)   #208
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must admit i am a bit confused by what Tombazis is saying (beyond my technical knowledge), but wouldn't an computer controlled active suspension allow the car to adjust itself to the air flow from the car ahead of it?

i get that they had a overall solution/direction and didn't want to introduce another variable that may or may not have an effect on that...perhaps in time and after they better understand the changes they have planned for 2021 forward.
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Old 28 Feb 2020, 20:45 (Ref:3960462)   #209
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must admit i am a bit confused by what Tombazis is saying (beyond my technical knowledge), but wouldn't an computer controlled active suspension allow the car to adjust itself to the air flow from the car ahead of it?

i get that they had a overall solution/direction and didn't want to introduce another variable that may or may not have an effect on that...perhaps in time and after they better understand the changes they have planned for 2021 forward.
I still am a fan of bringing in active suspension, but they have a good point.

To your first question, it probably could somewhat adapt to running behind someone. But it can only adjust the attitude of the car, not the aero.

To their points, teams would optimize the cars in ways they dare not now. It would probably create overall better performance, but it could create very narrow performance windows that active suspension would help keep the car in the middle of, but in the end, it can't ensure it would work in all conditions (such as dirty air from someone in front). Now... mix active suspension AND active aero (without DRS style usage limitations) and that is a different story.

We focus so, so much on the power units, worry about what the future of F1 will be and broadly ignore the chassis (other than trying to legislate throwback cars with reduced aero). Imagine active suspension and aero. It would set F1 apart. And frankly I think it would not be crazy expensive if limits on compute power, sensors and actuators were put in place.

As to your second question. That is probably very close to the truth. It's just easier to say "no" and not try to factor it in. Maybe at a future date.

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Old 28 Feb 2020, 21:13 (Ref:3960467)   #210
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The concepts and intended use of active systems seemed to vary according to who used them and when.The early systems were supposed to maintain constant ride height and aerodynamic performance at all states of fuel load.Later versions had enough associated input from GPS and other location devices that they would be optimised over a day's sessions as a result of self analysis.Basically they seemed to be slightly different each time round and compared times for each very small sector to determine which settings were faster.They then strung together the best settings to achieve the ideal settings for the fastest lap and if the input parameters changed there was a default setting which remained in use until normality returned.


It would save an awful lot of time and money if the system was in use now as inerters and dozens of hours of simulator time could be eliminated.The topic sometimes attracts comments about the time and cost of writing software.The actual software is pretty basic and a lot of it worked just fine on a computer that shared an epoch with the long defunct 286 family from Intel.Given the frequency rates of suspension you would easily find something capable of processing the information and I suggested a year or two back on another thread that mandating something like a Raspberry Pi and allowing active might be a way to attract younger interest.It also would indicate that ingenuity could prevail.You can pick up accelerometers and GPS modules for pennies now and a pump and accumulator wouldn't cost a fraction of a set of custom dampers and inerters.A few Moog valves and off you go.
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Old 28 Feb 2020, 22:05 (Ref:3960481)   #211
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It would save an awful lot of time and money if the system was in use now as inerters and dozens of hours of simulator time could be eliminated.The topic sometimes attracts comments about the time and cost of writing software.The actual software is pretty basic and a lot of it worked just fine on a computer that shared an epoch with the long defunct 286 family from Intel.Given the frequency rates of suspension you would easily find something capable of processing the information and I suggested a year or two back on another thread that mandating something like a Raspberry Pi and allowing active might be a way to attract younger interest.It also would indicate that ingenuity could prevail.You can pick up accelerometers and GPS modules for pennies now and a pump and accumulator wouldn't cost a fraction of a set of custom dampers and inerters.A few Moog valves and off you go.
I believe you and I are on the same page. Compute power (even for inexpensive embedded like a Raspberry Pi) is very powerful these day and easy of software development should be obvious to most everyone these days. It is now becoming cheaper to implement software/virtual solutions than it is to create a dedicated mechanical/physical solution.

This next example may be a bit of a stretch for many to follow, but the concept of "Software Defined Radios" (SDR) is a perfect example. In the past you would create complex and bespoke physical circuitry to do things like modulate or demodulate a signal. Now, even with simple off the shelf components, you can convert the base signal into a high frequency digital waveform and then manipulate (modulation, demodulation, filtering, etc.) fully via software. A single SDR could replicate many bespoke radio solutions. This IS the wave of the future.

This is how active suspension could work today for race cars. Why create trick mechanical solutions that are the modern day equivalence of boutique mechanical watch movements (great engineering, but engineering for the sake of engineering and VERY expensive to implement) vs. quartz watches that are cheaper and keep better time. I say this a VERY much as an aficionado of mechanical watches, but also with a real understanding that they are truly obsolete and are items for a niche audience (wearing an automatic dive watch at this very moment)

Anyhow... F1 (and most of racing) continues to do it the hard way just because that is how it has always been done (rules keep it that way). And when it was last done, it really WAS bleeding edge and expensive, but no longer would be.

Richard

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Old 1 Mar 2020, 00:37 (Ref:3960706)   #212
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One thing that struck me while following testing was that there was no Hulkenberg. I miss him.
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Old 1 Mar 2020, 21:12 (Ref:3960867)   #213
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One thing that struck me while following testing was that there was no Hulkenberg. I miss him.
I wonder what he was doing whileall his ex peers were pounding round?
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Old 1 Mar 2020, 21:23 (Ref:3960873)   #214
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He was in Rio for Coronaval.

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Old 1 Mar 2020, 21:25 (Ref:3960874)   #215
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I wonder what he was doing whileall his ex peers were pounding round?
Last I heard he said he was taking a sabbatical in 2020.... he confirmed the reported drive with BMW in DTM was fake news, and clearly he is not in Formula E.

Another trip to Le Mans? Anything he gets offered there wont be on par with his debut ride though.

If his claim to be taking a sabbatical is true, it is a waste and sad really.
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Old 2 Mar 2020, 02:47 (Ref:3960901)   #216
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If his claim to be taking a sabbatical is true, it is a waste and sad really.
Alas...... How dare he?

He didn't consult you first....???

Tsk, tsk, tsk, eh?
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Old 2 Mar 2020, 18:31 (Ref:3961055)   #217
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so who gets top marks from testing this year?

RacingPoint with their Merc clone seem to have the pace to challenge for the occasional podium which really cant be good news for RB (or for Ferrari depending on how far they have fallen). obviously Merc with DAS is also a standout. Renault i think deserves some credit (which i dislike having to admit) as they looked much better by the end of testing then they had at the beginning of the test sessions.

Mclaren, Alfa, and Alpha all seemed very prepared and the midfield battle looks to be even tighter this year.

all in all though, i think i give top marks to Williams. while i think they will squarely be in the mid field they are the feel good story for me. that they actually got to give Merc flack for poor engine reliability made them sound like a real team for the first time in a long time. that was nice.

Ferrari, obviously get the worst marks. of course it remains a possibility that they are sand bagging, their attempts to dampen expectations and then the settlement to end the week is at the least a very poor start to the season.

but overall, everyone looked to have done well and maybe for the first time in a while i think this season is very much going to come to what drivers can do with their machinery....that probably sounds like a cliche bu i am looking forward to seeing Perez, Ric, Sainz or Nando, and Russell steal a few podiums!
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Old 2 Mar 2020, 23:47 (Ref:3961122)   #218
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Mark Hughes' comprehensive analysis of the pre-season testing times.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...ad-is-mercedes

Mercedes, Ferrari, RBR, Racing Point seems to be the order, although Max was apparently destroying his best laps by overbraking just before the end of his good laps - let's hope ….!

Williams rated 2nd last rather than last, Haas has fallen behind them - we'll see after qualifying in Melbourne!

Best I have seen, with the caveat everything will probably change in Melbourne.
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Old 3 Mar 2020, 01:15 (Ref:3961127)   #219
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As much as I dislike hamilton and am tired of mercedes dominance, I hope they are allowed to use this "das" system, at least for the first half of the season. I want to see just how much of an advantage they gained from a smart little trick.

Ok, maybe just for the first 3 or so races, like they let ferrari use the oil burning tactic for just a few races before taking it away around the Austrian GP a couple years ago. They had become the clear best car the previous few races, had that taken away and fell right back behind mercedes from then on. Maybe that was 3 years ago? Anyway, I want to see this trick deployed and see what it gets them.

At this point, seeing Ferrari continue to get pantsed is becoming fun in it's own way. I want to see them or red bull beat mercedes, but they fail in so many interesting ways, it is not boring. Here's hoping red bull can take it to mercedes, I guess?
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Old 3 Mar 2020, 12:17 (Ref:3961190)   #220
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so who gets top marks from testing this year?

RacingPoint with their Merc clone seem to have the pace to challenge for the occasional podium
Racing point look to have made the biggest step forward - although how the "clone" arguments play out remains to be seen.

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all in all though, i think i give top marks to Williams. while i think they will squarely be in the mid field they are the feel good story for me. that they actually got to give Merc flack for poor engine reliability made them sound like a real team for the first time in a long time. that was nice.
Williams don't get top marks from me - they've essentially wheeled out last years car with some better bodywork on it.

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.. overall, everyone looked to have done well and maybe for the first time in a while i think this season is very much going to come to what drivers can do with their machinery....that probably sounds like a cliche bu i am looking forward to seeing Perez, Ric, Sainz or Nando, and Russell steal a few podiums!
I think the midfield will be closer than last year but I still can't see anyone outside of the big 3 getting podiums without weather / accidents.
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Old 3 Mar 2020, 12:49 (Ref:3961194)   #221
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I think the midfield will be closer than last year but I still can't see anyone outside of the big 3 getting podiums without weather / accidents.
I think we will see more than a few engine failures this season so I think there are a few options out there but yes, the mid-field must be perfect that day. No Sutil at Monaco moments can happen, STILL painful to remember that coming out of the tunnel
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Old 3 Mar 2020, 16:45 (Ref:3961247)   #222
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I think the midfield will be closer than last year but I still can't see anyone outside of the big 3 getting podiums without weather / accidents.
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I think we will see more than a few engine failures this season so I think there are a few options out there but yes, the mid-field must be perfect that day. No Sutil at Monaco moments can happen, STILL painful to remember that coming out of the tunnel
of course weather and accidents will need to happen. also penalties or quali issues that upset the start order.

last year though, we had this situation where the top 6 cars were basically lapping the rest of that field by the first round of stops so the mid field never could take advantage of any of those unpredictable issues (Kvyat in Germany may have been the only non top 3 podium? last year) as they were always too far back.

my hope is, and i think some of the analysis suggest this as well, that some of the long run pace shown by Renault and RP suggest they are closer now. perhaps even close enough to strike should the opportunity arise.

i suppose i should hope that sort of optimism last beyond the first race though.
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Old 3 Mar 2020, 17:22 (Ref:3961263)   #223
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I suppose i should hope that sort of optimism last beyond the first race though.
That's usually the line, we all look forward and hope. Then comes Australia and many dreams crushed of reasonable chances of battling for podium over just points.

The only would cards seem to be Monaco, rain can scatter things a bit, and Spa, someone's low df kit often surprises but sadly less common in recent years.
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Old 11 Mar 2020, 15:07 (Ref:3963080)   #224
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Renault reveal their race livery and new sponsor. a bit late and similar to last year...not sure why they waited but here it is.

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Old 11 Mar 2020, 16:32 (Ref:3963092)   #225
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Renault reveal their race livery and new sponsor. a bit late and similar to last year...not sure why they waited but here it is.

Haha!!

Wow that was a PR stunt and a half by Renault (not!).
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