Finishing out of points (engine regs) (merged)

[richwesthorpe1]

Does anyone think there will be less finishers this year because if you finish out of the points you might aswell not finish at all and have a new engine for the next race. am i right in thinking this can happen or will the cars be checked after the race

[Adam43]

Technically the last car on each lap can stop to claim a DNF and keep the points. It wouldn't be in danger of being overtaken by the car behind.

[Red]

It's been discussed before, I believe. Two points:
1) what 'failed to finish' means. A Classified car finished or not the race, and
2) deliberately failing to finish the race might actually lead to some nasty situations (see Arrow's case a couple years back)

[BootsOntheSide]

Technically, if you finish 90% of the racing laps, you have finished the race, so any car stopping after that point would surely be closely scrutineered to ensure that it stopped due to an engine problem. It could be a difficult grey area.

Teams are certainly taught to alwyas fight on while there is a chance of points. It's not unknown for 2 or more of the top 8 to stop during the last few laps (Monaco 1996 comes to mind), so I doubt anyone running lower than about 12th would use this tactic.

In any case I don't think many teams will have regular engine problems - as a cost-cutting measure the whole idea is flawed, as the reality of last year is that the bigger teams spent more on reliability, while the smaller teams had the most expensive failures, and less chance of scoring points through atrition. Other than McLaren's poor reliability and Toyota's impressive record, the faster teams generally had the best reliability records.

[richwesthorpe1]

do you think then the engines will easily last two races

[Red]

I wouldn't say 'easily'... however I'm pretty sure that we won't be seeing that many 'last lasps retirements'

[Pingguest]

I expect that most drivers from position nine and higher, won't finish the race. That will provide them the chance of changing the enigne, without getting punished.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by richwesthorpe1

do you think then the engines will easily last two races

Last season,some didn't easily last one.

Jury is still out i'm afraid.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Last season,some didn't easily last one.

Compared to seasons past the reliability was phenomenal.

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Jury is still out i'm afraid.

This is true, though.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Compared to seasons past the reliability was phenomenal.

Don't let Kimi hear you say that.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I expect that most drivers from position nine and higher, won't finish the race. That will provide them the chance of changing the enigne, without getting punished.

If you were in 9th place with just under 90% of the race done would you risk pulling off the track knowing how much even one point is worth?

[Pingguest]

Articles 85, 158, and 159 of the Formula 1 Sporting Regulations are as follows:

85) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events. Should it become necessary for a driver to use another engine he will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and may not use another engine until the end of the next Event. Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events may start the second with a different engine without incurring a penalty.
However, should an engine change be carried out after the first qualifying practice session but before the race at either of the two Events, any drivers concerned will be required to start the relevant race from the back of the starting grid in accordance with Article 126.
After consultation with the relevant engine supplier the FIA will attach seals to each engine in order to ensure that no significant moving parts can be rebuilt or replaced. Following the first of the two Events further seals will be applied in order to ensure that the engine cannot be run until the second Event unless it is installed in the car concerned.
Other than the straightforward replacement of one engine unit with another, a change will also be deemed to have taken place if any of the FIA seals are damaged or removed from the original engine after it has been used for the first time.

158) The car placed first will be the one having covered the scheduled distance in the shortest time, or, where
appropriate, passed the Line in the lead at the end of two hours (or more if the race is suspended, see
Article 13). All cars will be classified taking into account the number of complete laps they have covered,
and for those which have completed the same number of laps, the order in which they crossed the Line.
159) Cars having covered less than 90% of the number of laps covered by the winner (rounded down to the
nearest whole number of laps), will not be classified.

In the sporting regulations there has been made a difference between classification and finishing the race. According to article 85 SR, every driver is allowd to change his engine when he didn't finish the race. So in theory, a driver could get points and also changing his engine after the race.

[Marbot]

Rule 159,if you complete more than 90% of the laps you will be classified.You will have finished the race.

[Adam43]

Where has this 90% figure come from? I'm sure that 'finishing' means not passing the chequered flag. I think there may be some confusion between 'classified' and 'finished' here. Classification is indeed 90% of the race distance - see rule 159 of the SPorting regs.
The FIA rules (available on their website) http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ulations_a.pdf

Rule 85 concerns the engine change between events.

85) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events.
...
Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events may start the second with a different engine without incurring a penalty.
...

If you are going to do it, it would only mean stopping before the finish line.

Autosport cite an extreme example of this in last weeks edition: Rubens and Button could have retired in Monaco and Canada respectively and still kept the third place on the last lap. In Monaco the 6th, 7th and 8th finishers were all on different laps so could have all retired on the last lap.

[Adam43]

There were two threads talking about the same thing. I've merged some of the posts. The other thread remains another Engine Regs one, but concentrates on inspecting the engine. http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66243

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Rule 159,if you complete more than 90% of the laps you will be classified.You will have finished the race.

No, finishing is only when you take the chequered flag.

[Marbot]

This is going to be a riot! PS has already admitted he is using one race engines, and why not!

I think also that PS only needs is cars to be classified in each race ,and then later in the season when this years regs have been declared illegal, he'll be laughing.

[BootsOntheSide]

Hopefully the occasional loophole Adam mentions will be closed - inspect the engine of each car that fails to finish the race (especially with late and unexplained failures) and onyl grant a fresh engine if the existing one isn't raceworthy.

[LongJohnSilver]

SpeedTV announcers just explained a rule pertaining to the retirement of M. Schumacher. They explained that if a driver retires more than half way through a race, they can install a new engine before the next race, exempt from any penelties.

Now if this is true, would it not be sensible for anyone in 9th or greater place to simply retire. There is no loss of points, as 9th place is really 1st loser, and the advantage of a new engine with a one race life would be great. The engine could be run at increased revs, for longer in practices, and just be run harder.

Is this a misunderstanding of the rule, a case where the spirit of the rule will likely be followed, or a loophole that will be exploited?

[RSportRacer]

BAR twins both pulled into pitlane b4 passing flag so they could change engines without penalty

[Adam43]

The FIA rules (available on their website) http://www.fia.com/resources/documen...ulations_a.pdf

Rule 85 concerns the engine change between events.

85) Each driver may use no more than one engine for two consecutive Events.
...
Any driver who failed to finish the race at the first of the two Events may start the second with a different engine without incurring a penalty.
...

[#15 tkm 4/]

button didnt finish the race, so he could change his engine, or thats what the people on itv said

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by LongJohnSilver

Now if this is true, would it not be sensible for anyone in 9th or greater place to simply retire. There is no loss of points, as 9th place is really 1st loser, and the advantage of a new engine with a one race life would be great. The engine could be run at increased revs, for longer in practices, and just be run harder.

No - because the new engine then has to last for two races - unless you're planning on not scoring points again.

[Gt_R]

Unless something goes wrong in the next 2 races for michael (touchwood), Ferrari could possibly debut the F2005 in San Marino.

[marcel82]

This rule is pretty silly...

"Your engine must last for 2 weekends, but if you destroy in the first weekend during the race, that's ok"

doesn't make any sense to me