[LM24 Race] 2021 24 Hours of Le Mans - Race week thread

[Adam43]

For completeness.

https://youtu.be/ZCOSPtyZAPA
https://open.spotify.com/track/3qLZ8...2157a8be8f49ff

Pos	0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12	13	14	15	16	17	18	19	20	21	22	23	24
1	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	8	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7	7
2	8	38	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	7	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8	8
3	36	8	36	36	36	36	36	36	708	708	708	36	36	36	36	36	36	708	36	36	36	36	36	36	36
4	708	26	38	26	28	26	708	708	31	31	36	31	708	708	708	708	708	36	708	708	708	708	708	708	708
5	709	36	26	29	23	708	41	41	41	36	31	708	31	31	31	31	31	31	31	31	31	31	709	709	709
6	38	29	29	708	65	41	22	31	22	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	41	31	41	31
7	41	41	65	28	26	28	65	22	65	22	65	22	22	22	65	709	709	28	28	28	709	709	41	31	28
8	65	65	708	65	29	23	31	65	36	65	22	65	65	65	709	28	65	65	709	709	28	28	28	28	65
9	26	28	23	23	708	709	34	28	34	34	28	28	28	28	28	65	28	709	65	65	65	65	65	65	23
10	32	23	41	22	41	65	28	34	28	28	34	34	709	709	34	34	34	34	34	34	34	34	23	23	34
11	23	708	31	70	22	31	709	709	709	709	709	709	34	34	48	48	48	23	23	23	23	23	34	34	48
12	28	34	28	41	70	22	70	48	70	70	48	48	48	48	23	23	23	48	48	48	48	48	48	48	26
13	70	31	22	709	709	34	48	70	48	48	23	23	23	23	21	21	21	70	70	26	38	30	26	26	38
14	24	709	709	34	34	29	21	21	23	23	70	21	21	21	70	70	70	26	26	30	30	38	38	38	30
15	48	22	82	31	31	70	29	29	21	21	21	70	82	20	30	30	26	30	30	38	26	26	30	30	21
16	31	82	21	24	24	1	49	23	29	29	20	20	30	70	20	26	30	21	21	70	21	21	21	21	29
17	22	21	34	21	32	32	23	25	20	30	82	82	20	30	26	38	38	38	38	21	70	70	70	70	70
18	21	24	70	32	1	38	25	82	30	20	30	30	70	26	38	29	29	29	29	29	29	29	29	29	20
19	82	44	44	82	48	21	39	39	39	82	26	26	26	82	29	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	20	39
20	30	70	24	49	49	48	24	20	82	39	29	38	39	38	39	39	39	39	39	39	39	39	39	39	51
21	17	1	1	48	21	24	82	30	26	26	38	39	38	29	51	51	82	82	82	82	51	51	51	51	63
22	29	49	49	1	38	49	30	51	51	38	39	29	29	39	63	82	51	51	51	51	63	63	63	63	92
23	34	84	32	44	25	25	20	63	63	49	49	49	49	51	92	63	63	63	63	63	92	92	92	92	91
24	25	64	84	38	20	39	51	26	52	51	51	51	51	63	82	92	92	92	92	92	91	91	91	91	44
25	49	52	48	20	39	20	52	52	91	63	63	63	63	52	91	91	91	91	91	91	44	44	44	44	83
26	20	79	20	25	51	30	63	91	49	52	52	52	52	92	83	83	83	83	83	44	74	33	83	83	33
27	44	91	39	39	63	82	92	92	25	92	92	92	92	91	33	33	33	33	44	83	83	83	33	33	80
28	1	30	52	52	92	51	26	49	38	91	91	91	91	49	49	72	44	44	33	74	33	74	80	80	74
29	84	51	51	51	30	52	64	79	92	79	79	83	83	83	52	80	72	80	80	33	80	80	74	74	49
30	39	32	25	79	52	92	91	38	24	80	83	33	33	33	80	44	80	74	74	80	60	60	60	49	60
31	74	63	79	63	79	63	79	83	79	83	80	80	64	80	72	74	74	54	54	54	77	77	49	60	77
32	72	92	63	92	64	74	33	80	83	33	33	64	80	72	74	54	54	77	77	77	777	49	77	77	84
33	52	72	92	91	74	64	83	57	33	74	64	72	72	54	54	77	77	60	60	60	84	777	84	84	777
34	64	83	64	64	91	79	57	33	80	57	72	54	54	74	44	60	60	777	777	84	82	84	777	777	18
35	51	20	91	33	82	91	38	24	57	54	54	74	74	44	77	777	777	52	84	777	49	18	18	18	95
36	91	88	83	74	83	33	80	54	54	64	74	71	71	71	60	49	52	84	95	49	18	95	95	95	85
37	92	80	74	98	33	83	74	74	74	72	44	60	77	77	777	84	84	95	24	24	85	85	85	85	52
38	79	47	33	47	57	72	56	72	64	71	60	77	60	60	22	52	95	18	18	95	95	69	69	52	69
39	63	98	98	83	47	57	54	64	72	77	71	44	44	95	84	95	18	24	52	18	69	52	52	69	54
40	88	54	57	95	72	47	85	55	777	60	77	95	95	777	88	18	85	85	85	85	52	54	54	54	22
41	86	33	47	72	55	80	55	77	77	777	777	777	777	84	95	88	88	69	49	69	54	71	71	71	71
42	56	57	80	57	56	55	72	71	71	95	95	388	88	88	18	69	69	88	69	52	88	88	88	22	88
43	47	86	95	80	80	54	47	777	66	66	388	88	388	69	69	85	24	49	88	88	71	22	22	88	86
44	71	95	71	54	54	56	77	66	60	44	84	84	84	18	85	24	49	72	388	71	388	86	86	86	64
45	33	48	54	30	388	66	66	60	84	84	88	69	69	85	24	71	71	388	71	388	22	82	64	64
46	80	71	72	56	66	85	71	85	388	388	69	18	18	24	71	388	388	71	86	86	86	64	82	82
47	57	39	56	388	85	388	777	388	95	88	57	85	85	388	388	86	86	86	22	22	24	24
48	99	56	388	55	71	71	60	69	85	24	46	79	24	86	86	22	64	64	72	64	64
49	54	99	88	66	95	44	44	47	88	69	18	46	86	64	64	64	22	22	64	72
50	83	46	86	85	77	77	18	18	69	85	85	24	79	79	79	79	79	79	79	79
51	77	777	55	71	69	777	69	95	55	18	24	86	46	46	46	46	46	46	46	46
52	18	66	66	77	46	69	388	88	44	46	86	57	57	57	57	57	57	57	57	57
53	388	55	99	46	777	95	95	84	46	55	66	66	66	66	66	66	66	66	66	66
54	95	388	777	60	99	60	88	44	18	25	55	55	55	55	55	55	55	55	55	55
55	98	85	85	69	44	46	84	46	86	86	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25	25
56	85	18	77	777	60	18	46	56	47	47	47	47	47	47	47	47	47	47	47	47
57	60	77	46	88	84	88	32	86	56	56	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	32	32
58	777	69	60	99	88	84	1	32	32	32	99	99	99	99	99	99	99	99	99	99
59	46	60	69	84	18	99	86	99	99	99	98	98	98	98	98	98	98	98	98	98
60	55	25	18	18	98	86	99	98	98	98
61	66	74	30	86	86	98	98
62	69

[joeb]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Must remember zip ties for Petit

I've got a bunch of those 2ft ties laying around.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

The cars are too dang reliable now. My favorite Le Mans in the past decade is still 2017 because that year you did have that unpredictability factory. Thought there was a chance it would happen this year. Credit to Toyota, Gickenhaus, and Alpine. They got their cars home and ahead of the LMP2 class to boot.

More than a quarter of the field dnf. That doesn't seem like great reliability to me!

Originally Posted by Adam43

It seems they nailed their brake wear issue. Driveability might be the next thing to work on. Shame we won't get to see it for a bit.

That could be true for all of the new hypercars, was barely even an issue.

[chernaudi]

How many of the DNF's were due to accident/collision damage vs mechanical/electronics issues? LMP2 especially weren't as bullet proof as they have been in recent years, ironic both as far as the suspected issues with LMH that didn't really crop up (aside from Toyota's possible issues that didn't actually bite them to a significant degree), and that the LMP2 make less power (but are also somewhat heavier) than in previous years.

You have to remember that United basically had to re-wire one of their cars because of an electrical problem (though ultimately solved it seemed by a battery change?), and Risi hand grenaded an engine.

[broadrun96]

From memory, after a quick afternoon nap, I think I can try to split them mechanical vs incident.

LMP2-41 mechanical, 82 mechanical-engine, 25 incident, 32 incident, 1 incident, 24 can't remember

GTE-Pro 72-mechanical, 79 incident

GTE-Am very cloudy in my brain but remember 98-incident, 56-incident, 47-incident?

388, 46, 57, 66, 55, 99 I can't remember

[TF110]

I watched most of the race but missed the last few hours. Super happy for the #7 crew to finally get the win. All 3 were super quick and consistent. The 8 didn't look like they were slower but they never got to the 7 in a way to pressure them. When they had the fuel issues I had a bad feeling but they turned it around and that was a big relief. Glickenhaus was there on reliability and thats great for the future.

[chernaudi]

Toyota's issues weren't gearbox as speculated on the TV broadcast. They had fuel pick up problems similar to what the #8 had at Monza. They did the work arounds (even pitting the cars early on most stints until the end) to avoid a possible 25 minute fuel filter and fuel pump replacement.

That would've meant instead of winning by 4 laps over Alpine and Glickenhaus, they would've been pushed back to 2-3 or 3-4 by a margin of3-4 laps.

Ironically, I also read that the #41 WRT DNF'd because they ran out of fuel on the last lap?

[kobefly]

Finally López, Kamui and Mike take the win at Le Mans! So happy for all of them and especially for my countryman I have been following for so many years. Vamos Pechito!

Toyota's race was so irregular, they hardly made consecutive stints with the same amount of laps, but both cars that had so many reliability issues in previous races managed to stay on track without losing too much time.

It was heartbreaking seeing WRT #41 drop the win with one lap to go, that team had such a solid performance up to that moment.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by canaglia

hard to tell about 007, in theory according to LMH rules, aero design should be irrelevant if max downforce allowed is reached somehow, well that in theory guess in real life things are a bit different since aero balance isn't something you can easily measure as can be measured the overall N generated by the downforce.

But, as far as I understand the drag and downforce are not set by the rules. The regs only set an efficiency coefficient. LMH constructors can opt for more or less downforce (with more or less drag). It seems Toyota went for more DF, while SCG opted for less drag. At least sector times and trap speeds support this assumption.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

The cars are too dang reliable now. My favorite Le Mans in the past decade is still 2017 because that year you did have that unpredictability factory. Thought there was a chance it would happen this year. Credit to Toyota, Gickenhaus, and Alpine. They got their cars home and ahead of the LMP2 class to boot.

Here's a thought I had looking back at the race. Specifically Toyota's race. Not only cars got more reliable, I think, even when they're not, teams have now developed processes to deal with problems better than it could ever be done in the past. Glickenhaus and Alpine had a very reliable run. Toyota certainly didn't, and yet they managed it well enough to win. No matter how cars change in the future, this kind of team management cannot be unlearned. AF Corse changed brakes in one minute. Maybe good teams are just too good

Originally Posted by kobefly

Finally López, Kamui and Mike take the win at Le Mans! So happy for all of them and especially for my countryman I have been following for so many years. Vamos Pechito!

Congrats on the 1st ever Argentinian Le Mans winner!

[chernaudi]

Actually, Lopez is the second. You have to go all the way back to 1954 when Jose Froilan Gonzalez won with Ferrari for the first Argentinian to win LM overall.

As far as aero, the LMH/LMDH cars have to meet a lift/drag ratio (or how the ACO defines it) of 4:1 if I remember correctly. How the teams/manufacturers meet that is up to them, however. It should be noted, though, that the Toyotas had the fastest in race trap speeds of any car, with 339.1 kmh/210.7 mph.

[chernaudi]

Also just read that the WRT DNF was caused by a bad throttle sensor on Motorsport Total.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

It should be noted, though, that the Toyotas had the fastest in race trap speeds of any car, with 339.1 kmh/210.7 mph.

Woah! Where is that number coming from? I've never even seen them do 330.

[bentley speed 8]

They showed that stat all throughout the race. Granted, I also saw them doing mostly 325 kmph. They must have hit that number drafting another car.

[Coldasice]

Originally Posted by canaglia

4th le mans in a row won without serious competitors, but I'm glad #7 finally got some glory

Always and forever, the biggest competitor every year at Le Mans that every team must face is...the race itself. The race is a very cruel mistress. Every year at Le Mans, the race itself can throw a ton of unpredictable and surprising variables into the mix for teams to deal with. Competing with other teams on the track is in addition to facing competition from the race itself.

Besides, no different really than Audi's 'golden era' at Le Mans during the 2000s.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

Does anybody think that sportscars are TOO reliable nowadays. That it takes away some of the interest in these endurance races now.

Nope, there have been a number of Le Mans races in previous years where as a percentage there were less DNFs on the grid than this year.

Originally Posted by WyldStallion

The cars are too dang reliable now. My favorite Le Mans in the past decade is still 2017 because that year you did have that unpredictability factory. Thought there was a chance it would happen this year. Credit to Toyota, Gickenhaus, and Alpine. They got their cars home and ahead of the LMP2 class to boot.

In the 2017 Le Mans race, there was a 60 car grid. 48 out of 60 cars finished the race that year. This year, there was a 62 car grid. This year only 44 out of 62 cars finished the race. So as a percentage, finishing reliability this year was worse than the 2017 race.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

How many of the DNF's were due to accident/collision damage vs mechanical/electronics issues? LMP2 especially weren't as bullet proof as they have been in recent years, ironic both as far as the suspected issues with LMH that didn't really crop up (aside from Toyota's possible issues that didn't actually bite them to a significant degree), and that the LMP2 make less power (but are also somewhat heavier) than in previous years.

You have to remember that United basically had to re-wire one of their cars because of an electrical problem (though ultimately solved it seemed by a battery change?), and Risi hand grenaded an engine.

Accidents/collision damage can be argued as being part of reliability too. Some would say that the ability of a car to withstand an accident/collision damage and continue to run, or to get back on track with only very quick and minimal repairs speaks to the durability and reliability of the car design.

Reliability at Le Mans can also be viewed as finishing reliability, or the ability to finish the race no matter what the race throws at you (mechanical, electrical, accidents or any other issues).

Historically, cars that are very fragile in an accident or collision tend to do poorly at Le Mans.

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Toyota's issues weren't gearbox as speculated on the TV broadcast. They had fuel pick up problems similar to what the #8 had at Monza. They did the work arounds (even pitting the cars early on most stints until the end) to avoid a possible 25 minute fuel filter and fuel pump replacement.

That would've meant instead of winning by 4 laps over Alpine and Glickenhaus, they would've been pushed back to 2-3 or 3-4 by a margin of3-4 laps.

Ironically, I also read that the #41 WRT DNF'd because they ran out of fuel on the last lap?

Both Toyotas during the race dealt with multiple issues. The fuel system issue on both cars is the only confirmed major issue by Toyota. The 8 car had a few punctures and some minor damage to deal with early in the race. Both cars had some other unspecified issues during the race that Toyota has not elaborated on.

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Here's a thought I had looking back at the race. Specifically Toyota's race. Not only cars got more reliable, I think, even when they're not, teams have now developed processes to deal with problems better than it could ever be done in the past. Glickenhaus and Alpine had a very reliable run. Toyota certainly didn't, and yet they managed it well enough to win. No matter how cars change in the future, this kind of team management cannot be unlearned. AF Corse changed brakes in one minute. Maybe good teams are just too good

This is a big key to Le Mans I think. Looking back on the great teams of Le Mans historically, what they all had and have in common was/is the ability to develop processes to deal with unpredictable problems, and be able to manage whatever Le Mans threw/throws at them. To me this is a big aspect to being able to have consistent success at Le Mans.

[greenmachinets040]

Wow. Where should I begin?

First of all thankyou for Tentenths to create this site where enthusiast Endurance Racing fans can communicate!

As a Toyota fan, I am very happy the won the race, but Maan did they have problems!

Congratulations to the Number 7 crew to finally win it! It was very emotional.

Glickenhaus did a good job too. It was interesting though how slow their average laptimes compared to Toyota were.

Jim Glickenhaus was interviewed a few times where he always told: "This is a BoP class, you have to slow the Hybrid Hypercar Toyotas down".
Of course this is a BoP class. Power output is regulated and equalled out. Aerodynamics are regulated . MJ per stint is regulated and equalled out. What more do you want?

It will take Glickenhaus a lot of testing, racing, experience collecting before they can come close to winning at Le Mans. You just have to be patient and keep your head down. Good luck to Glickenhaus in the future.

Alpine did the best they could.

Feel utterly sorry for WRT. After Toyota s 2016 campaign I did not think I would see a drama at the finish no more. It was Heartbraking.

AF Corse did their job, brought the Nr. 51 home in style.

The am Class also AF Corse.

Wonder what can they do in LMH!

[S griffin]

Le Mans delivers another great event

The rain really livened things up in the opening laps, not surprised to see drivers struggling to keep it on the track.

Well done to the #7, they deserve it after all their unrewarded efforts over the past few years. Pleased for all 3 of the drivers. #8 was unlucky at the start, just a victim of someone else's mistake in treacherous conditions

The Glicks struggled at the beginning, but at least they got to the end. Nice to see Jim throughout the coverage, he's done a brilliant job just to get the car to Le Mans, now he's made it to the end

The challenge to the hypercars from the LMP2 cars never did happen, but still was a great race in the class. What rotten luck from the #41. Not quite as cruel as what happened to the Toyota in 2016, but not far off. At least it's team mate the #31 managed to take the win instead. That was close at the end with the chequered flag man though. And well done to Dragonspeed for winning LMP2 Pro-AM despite a few problems. Just a shame JPM can't count a class win as part of motorsport's triple crown....

Well done for AF Corse for winning both GT classes, once again the best of the bunch

So thanks for another great event Le Mans. Now looking forward to seeing the likes of Ferrari and Peugeot competing in the top class

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

But, as far as I understand the drag and downforce are not set by the rules. The regs only set an efficiency coefficient. LMH constructors can opt for more or less downforce (with more or less drag). It seems Toyota went for more DF, while SCG opted for less drag. At least sector times and trap speeds support this assumption.

lmh and lmdh rules tell manufacturer to design their cars on a 4:1 ratio, with 1 intended as cx I think, considering that bodywork is frozen once homologated, none is going to homologate a high drag car to get more downforce because it would be really penalizing at le mans.
I think toyota, 007 and peugeot have reached the same or however comparable amount of downforce (intended as overall N that push the car to the ground as X speed) but achieved on a different aero balance, mostly if we talk about peugeot.
Anyway toyota marked high top speed at about 339km/h, but this means nothing because it was clearly reached in favourable conditions, also corvette c8r managed to reach about 309km/h during the race.
During qualifying and FP both toyota and 007 had a top speed in range of 320-330 all the time, considering cars have the same power, this can suggest cars have also a similiar drag value, so as consequence similiar if not same max downforce allowed.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Coldasice

Always and forever, the biggest competitor every year at Le Mans that every team must face is...the race itself.

Besides, no different really than Audi's 'golden era' at Le Mans during the 2000s.

you're right, but compete against private teams who will never have resources and the know how of a work team isn't exactly the same about to compete against another work team of same level, if not better.
toyota vs porsche/audi is a whole different sport than toyota vs alpine/glickenhaus. That's a fact.
And you're right about audi, audi won many ALMS season against no serious competitors (but penske porsches in some tracks even if they were running in different classes). The same they dominated early-mid '00 LM because it was a R8 vs R8 battle or R8-R10 against pescarolo.
Even when bentley won in 2003 it was because there was audi sport/joest behind.

[Aysedasi]

Which is a clear illustration of making the best of what you've got. You can only beat the people who turn up to race you. It pains me when people talk of Toyota having had no competition in recent years when that was simply because Audi and Porsche beetled off to hide...

My glass was decidedly half empty at the start of this Le Mans week. Not being there again was painful for me, but I enjoyed the race, certainly much more than last year. Having a 'family' interest (again) made a difference but I actually thought it was a much better race and the threat of Toyota dramas kept me awake in the last quarter.

[champcarman]

No TV coverage in Australia spoiled it for me this year.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by champcarman

No TV coverage in Australia spoiled it for me this year.

You couldn't subscribe to any of the streams?

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Which is a clear illustration of making the best of what you've got. You can only beat the people who turn up to race you. It pains me when people talk of Toyota having had no competition in recent years when that was simply because Audi and Porsche beetled off to hide...

My glass was decidedly half empty at the start of this Le Mans week. Not being there again was painful for me, but I enjoyed the race, certainly much more than last year. Having a 'family' interest (again) made a difference but I actually thought it was a much better race and the threat of Toyota dramas kept me awake in the last quarter.

it's different (IMHO), because

toyota vs alpine/glickenhaus means that toyota is racing on its own, dealing with own drivers ability, reliability and team ability to adapt to different situations, basically running against rivals who can't realistically match toyota short and long term performance for the overall win (unless of toyota's bad luck, drivers mistakes or reliability issues)

toyota vs porsche/audi it was the same writte above + the necessity to push everytime and everything further on a higher limit because there were rivals at same level or even better who could beat toyota and win the race due better performances.



Of course le mans requires maximum effort and 0 mistake attitude anyhow.

The fact audi and porsche had to retire while toyota decided to remain is another matter, but can't deny that work teams vs work teams is a much higher competitive and challenging scenario than work team vs private teams.

[Aysedasi]

Oh absolutely. But it is what it is.... The history of sports car racing (any racing for that matter) is littered with periods where one manufacturer has a huge advantage or is fighting only against privateers. We're clearly in an interim period before other works efforts give us (and Toyota) more competition. But I don't think any of this devalues Toyota's achievement with a new car at Le Mans nor does it devalue what was a stunning first Le Mans for a privateer team in Glickenhaus.

[J Jay]

Just for reference, Toyota's first Le Mans back (of this stint) did have them taking it to Audi and leading on pace ... before the complexity of the initial TS020 design made on-site repairs impossible.

Compare and contrast to both Glickenhaus (trouble free all race) and their own efforts this time (managing an on-going issue while maintaining a lead) shows how far both teams have come.

Ignore the naysayers, whoever turns up and takes the flag is the worthy winner.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

You couldn't subscribe to any of the streams?

I went to town on it and splashed out 10 euros (A$16) for the 'official' WEC/Le Mans website stream with all the trimmings. ISTR I did the same last year when Foxtel here dropped their Eurosport channel not long before the event.
I spent more on coffee to stay awake for all bar a couple of hours, plus French bread and cheese .... mood food to help me think im there!

The best value 10 Euros I have spent for a long time.
No buffering dropouts or interruptions
(FWIW a stream for the LM24 is the only event I have ever paid for. (beyond my normal Foxtel TV sub).

One day I will get there for real. Until then I will happily throw 10 Euros at a reliable stream.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by J Jay

Just for reference, Toyota's first Le Mans back (of this stint) did have them taking it to Audi and leading on pace ... before the complexity of the initial TS020 design made on-site repairs impossible.

Compare and contrast to both Glickenhaus (trouble free all race) and their own efforts this time (managing an on-going issue while maintaining a lead) shows how far both teams have come.

Ignore the naysayers, whoever turns up and takes the flag is the worthy winner.

Are you meaning 2012 toyota return? because ts020 was toyota gt-one of 1998-1999. Anyway, unlike 007, debuting 2012 ts030 revealed to be a more performant car than R18 etron/ultra, infact toyota won quite easily 3 races after le mans and they could had actually won all 5 post LM races despite worse consumes and some bad luck.
I don't think your example fits the actual situation, also because according to 10 years ago technological context, ts030 was a much more complex car than nowadays 007.
And of course, sure, I agree, whoever wins is always right and always worthy, but in each victory there can be different levels of competitiveness... anyway it's history who decides the importance of each victory.