Classic F3 seasons over time (Pre 2000)

[chunterer]

As the title suggests this should be an open discussion about people's favourite, or what are considered to be the better F3 championship years of the past and why.

I'm going to restrict this to pre 2000 so that it's less current and more historical but not restrict it to just the British series!!!

I'll probably set up a few similar threads in coming weeks.

Away you go.

[Alan Morgan]

1975 was a classic, with Nilsson, Ribeiro and Neve battling it out all year, particularly as 1974 was so bad.

1977 was also good, with the Daly/South rivalry.

In earlier years, 1970, the last year of the 1 Litre formula, produced some of the closest racing ever. The tyres had got so huge,and the car's made such a big hole in the air that slipstreaming battles took place almost everywhere.

[davyboy]

1983 was pretty epic... Senna against Brundle... a taster for you here.

[Dan Rear]

I'm with Alan, '77. Good drivers, as later years proved, and plenty of chassis variety, and cars equally matched. 1980 was similar, until the RT3 got going at the year end. After that, F3 was never as good IMHO, becoming largely dominated by 1 or 2, at most, different chassis, which all tended to look the same. Much like all single seaters post '79 in fact...

[Henrik Pedersen]

I prefer the late 60, and 1970, the screamer years. In Scandinavia we had a lot of cars, some close racing, and most of all Ronnie, Reine plus all the great up and coming driver of the 70.
The cars was some of the most captivating in smaller formulaes.

[chunterer]

Some good offerings already, although I thought this thread would develop a bit quicker!!

Which year was the Piquet v Warwick battle, 1978? that was supposed to be a goodun?

Then I believe 1982 was quite open, 2-3 drivers at a similar level.

'83 is an inevitable example and always goes down as one of those classic duels. Certainly it was one of a handful of great champiosnhip battles in my time along with (arguably) Wallace v Sandro-Sala in '86, Brabham V McNish in '89 ( amongst a very, very strong field) and most definitely the 2 Finns in 1990 and Rubens v DC in 1991 although in those latter 2 examples, the protagonists were pretty much in a league of their own, much like in 1983.....

The only other decent seasons in terms of depth of talent I can think after that were 1995 or 96, both seasons were fairly open IIRC?

Anyone wish to open these seasons up a bit more?

[chunterer]

What always has amazed me about F3 is that there have been numerous examples of F3 seasons where one driver had dominated but then not gone onto the successes one would have automatically assumed would follow? I.E Lehto, Magnussen

Maybe it was those seasons were there was a real dogfight for the championship that produced the greater drivers (Senna v Brundle, Hakkinen v Salo etc..) whereas those where one driver dominated were maybe weaker years?

Never quite worked that out.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by chunterer

What always has amazed me about F3 is that there have been numerous examples of F3 seasons where one driver had dominated but then not gone onto the successes one would have automatically assumed would follow? I.E Lehto, Magnussen

Maybe it was those seasons were there was a real dogfight for the championship that produced the greater drivers (Senna v Brundle, Hakkinen v Salo etc..) whereas those where one driver dominated were maybe weaker years?

Never quite worked that out.

Hmmm, not sure that the Keegan-Giacomelli battle of '76, the South-Daly one of '77, or Acheson-Johansson of 1980 produced great drivers (good, yes, and who knows how good South might have become, but none of them great)

Chris

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Hmmm, not sure that the Keegan-Giacomelli battle of '76, the South-Daly one of '77, or Acheson-Johansson of 1980 produced great drivers (good, yes, and who knows how good South might have become, but none of them great)

Chris

Thanks Chris, good offerings there!

Whilst these seasons were a bit before my time, I might suggest that Giacomelli was probably very good and got a pretty rough deal in F1? Keegan flattered to deceive though.

Kenny and Stefan were also a pair that might well have done more at the top had they not been around at a time when 2 god's of motorsport were around. Neither got a good break with F1 in reality.

Was Stephen South the poor chap who lost a limb in a Can-Am crash? He was destined for a McLaren drive had that not occurred IIRC?

I think 1981 and then 1986 would be a good example of the sort of season you refer to, Morris Sala and Wallace fought it out season long and there was a few other good drivers like Van Kouwen, Donnelly, Reid, Bailey but not much depth in talent?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Was Stephen South the poor chap who lost a limb in a Can-Am crash? He was destined for a McLaren drive had that not occurred IIRC?

Yes that is the one. He actually did get a GP chance with McLaren prior to the career ending accident which IIRC was at Trois Rivieres at the Molson GP meeting in August 1980.... He went head on into a concrete barrier, I think in practice, resulting in as you say loss of a lower leg. The car was I think a Budweiser one. (which would make it a Paul Newman Lola-Chev)

The GP he was entered in was for McLaren at the USA West GP, Long Beach, in March 1980. (Replacing an injured Prost, who had crashed in practice and broke a wrist at Kyalami). South sadly dnq'd at Long Beach, as did Kennedy and Lees in their Shadows. To put his performance into perspective, McLaren Teamate that weekend, John Watson, qualified only 21st, some 3+ secs off the pace.

South had also tested with Lotus in a '79' in late 1979.

There is some video coverage of the 1980 Can Am season on youtube in which he features.... just go to the youtube.com website and search 'Can Am 1980.'

I recall that he had also tested a Toleman F2 car and had secured a drive for 1980 in F2 with them ...... he lost this drive over the 'conflict of interests' of driving the McLaren without Toleman permission. That is what sent him Stateside looking for a drive.

Im pretty sure he drove in F2 for Project4 (Ron Dennis) in a March BMW in 1979.

Edit: Just realised the link I was making in my mind between the 1979 F2 Ron Dennis P4 drive and the 1980 McLaren F1 drive at Long Beach was nonsense as Ron was not involved with McLaren in 1980. It was an M29 South was in at Long Beach, so not the most impressive of their cars, and still pre the MP4 (Dennis) era which started in 1981.

[chunterer]

Ah yes that's right, thanks E.B. South attempted to qualify a McLaren at Long Beach and that was his only F1 outing pre injury. I thought he might have been a longer term charge of Dennis' with a view to 1981etc...

1985 was quite a competitive season in the end, but it seems that it might not have been had Reynard kept their early season development advantage as Russell Spence appeared to be dominant, only for Gugelmin and Ralt to come back strongly in the latter part of the season.

It's strange as despite the big fields the only drivers who really went on to achieve much of note from that season were arguably Big Mo and Wallace?

[Chris Townsend]

For me, South was probably the best of that bunch of really good British F3 drivers of the mid-late 70s who never quite made it [Daly probably had the best shot at it, and I really rated Geoff Lees]
South raced really hard with Daly in 1977, with much lower budget [he started the season with John Stokes' March 763 and the 773 he got after Silverstone had been the March test car]. The season after, where Daly had got the ICI Chevron B42 in F2, South had nothing until he got a March 782 at mid season, and proceeded to demonstrate in Aurora AFX series quite how good he was. For 1979 he got one of the seats in the ICI team with March 792s and on his day was devastating - I think the first Hockenheim race no one could get near him.
I think, if he had stayed at Toleman for 1980, he would have won the European F2 championship, and then, who knows? As it was he grabbed the first race opportunity in a very poor car - the M29. Henton took his Toleman seat and duly won the F2 title.

I believe that Stephen South ended up marrying a nurse he met in hospital after his leg was amputated.

Chris

[chunterer]

Chris, it definitely seems like very much a case of 'what if' for South doesn't it?

Had he not dropped the F2 for the McLaren drove etc?

[Dan Rear]

Chris, I agree on all of that, though of the 2 I think Lees had it, just, over South. Though I may be biased in supporting a Midlander over the Southerner!

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Chris, I agree on all of that, though of the 2 I think Lees had it, just, over South. Though I may be biased in supporting a Midlander over the Southerner!

I think the thing you have to admire about Lees is his sheer persistence and willingness to sacrifice everything in the belief that one day he'd make the breakthrough.
A devastating season in F.Ford, 1975, got him next to nothing - a works Chevron F3 halfway through 1976 once they'd built a car for everyone else.
1977 they diluted the effort by running three works cars
1978 Lees had nothing, like South, until Jack Kallay bought him some drives in the Mario Delotti Ensign and then a Chevron B42.
What happened?
Nothing, he busked until he finally got a decent F2 drive with Ralt for 1981 and proceeded to demonstrate he'd still got it, five years after he should have really been in a good team in F2.
Then... when he got the Lotus drives in 1982 I was so pleased for him. I thought that was it and he was in. But no, off to Japan instead, to build another career.

Jim Weaver reminds me of him a bit, even if he never got as far as F2, worst lucj.

[Dan Rear]

Chris, I think it was the 78 season that Lees really shone. OK he didn't have much to beat in AFX, but he got that old Ensign, then the rubbish Hesketh going much better than they should have. And put the B42 on pole at Thruxton didn't he? And he went well in proper F2 against the continental hotshoes. And went OK in CanAm.

With hindsight, I'd rate him a class above Jim Weaver I'm afraid

[Andy Clegg]

Hi,
I've put an entry for the 1975 British Air Ferries Formula Ford race at Oulton on the "Old Race" sheets thread. G.Lees is entered there.
Andy Clegg

[chunterer]

Thanks Andy.

Dan re Weaver would it be fair to say that he only really blossomed later in his career, or was that simply a result of him being able to secure drives that weren't as dependent on him having to find sponsors that restircted him early on?

I don't recall his time in F3, other than 1981/82, but I think he was pretty quick against some strong opposition?

Was he in the European series in 1983 or '84?

[Dan Rear]

Chunt, he did well in then 82 Euro F3 series, winning 3 of the 4 races he entered I think in an EJ RT3. This was great I accept, but IIRC tyres played a large role in it. In the Brit F3 series in 81 and 82, he was a regular front runner against JP, Tassin, Boesel, White, Byrne, Scott, Mansilla, Moreno etc, but he didn't really shine overly.

He got his 2nd wind in Group C from mid-85 in various 956s/962s, and took off in sportscars thereafter.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

Chunt, he did well in then 82 Euro F3 series, winning 3 of the 4 races he entered I think in an EJ RT3. This was great I accept, but IIRC tyres played a large role in it. In the Brit F3 series in 81 and 82, he was a regular front runner against JP, Tassin, Boesel, White, Byrne, Scott, Mansilla, Moreno etc, but he didn't really shine overly.

He got his 2nd wind in Group C from mid-85 in various 956s/962s, and took off in sportscars thereafter.

Ah yes it was 1982 in Europe, did he win at Monaco by any chance?

He's best known as you say for the sportscar stuff but he was also no mean pedaller of touring cars (that's what I remember him most fondly from). Possibly had a chance to join BMW as a works driver for 1985 after his CC British exploits in 1984 and had a one off at Spa for Schnitzer but nothing came of that for whatever reason. He wasn't regularly seen again in Group A until that infamous 1989 season with Prodrive!

[Dan Rear]

No, he won at Donny, then 2 later season races in Europe. Didn't Alain Ferte win Monaco that year, in the dreadful Martini MK37. Funny how well Martinis always used to go in France...

[Andy Clegg]

I remember Weaver in the ETCC rounds at Silverstone on the grass at Woodcote (Weaver's trench). When he went to USA in Sports Cars his name was mentioned a lot more.
Andy.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Dan Rear

No, he won at Donny, then 2 later season races in Europe. Didn't Alain Ferte win Monaco that year, in the dreadful Martini MK37. Funny how well Martinis always used to go in France...

True, I don't think Martini's wentso well anywhere else apart from ocassionally in Italy or Germany IIRC?

Suppose it was similar with Dallara's in the 80's. Dominated Italian series with only a few occassional threats from Martini, Reynard and Ralt, but no whiff of any over here until (disregarding the World Cup at Silverstone....) Raf Del Sarte's year old car in '87, which with all due respect wasn't a massively serious attempt! Then nothing again until '93 and the rest is history!

I might add that imo one of the best ever Italian series was possibly 1986? Some class drivers were in that battle with a good mix of chassis?

[Andy Clegg]

Number one Geoff Lees and Rick Morris from the Oulton Meeting 1975
Andy