Double drive charges?

[daj]

Just out of interest, With the Top hat race`s being two driver`s with the Groovy baby series now. What is a resonable figure to ask for a second driver? Not trying to make money just want to be fair. .

[MGDavid]

I've been flattered and asked to be 2nd driver a few times now - always offer half the entry fee, half the insurance (if any), bring some fuel, as a minimum. And I get my hands dirty on the car if poss as I learn something everytime. But them I'm at the 'racing for fun' end of the grid - up the other end with quick and valuable cars I guess it'll be a bit different maybe?

[kickstart]

It does depend on the car and how competitive it is I suppose. Perhaps one way would be to cost up the real running costs of the car for the season and then divide it by the number of races. I would be surprised if the cost per race was less than £500 and if that was about right I would say that circa £400 might be the right sort of figure.

[Peter Mallett]

I generally ask 50% of the entry and fuel and of course its a "you bend it, you mend it" deal.

[Al Weyman]

Thats a good deal Pete, when do you want me :-)

[tigerbill65]

when working out the price, consider.
engine rebuild costs.
brake wear
tyre wear
fuel costs
general wear on every thing
cost to get to the track
time and effort to spanner the car.
dont accept just half the entry . and fuel
unless the driver is a top named driver who would add
some street cred to .

[MGDavid]

tb65, is being faster than the owner good enough to 'add some street cred' ?

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by tigerbill65

when working out the price, consider.
engine rebuild costs.
brake wear
tyre wear
fuel costs
general wear on every thing
cost to get to the track
time and effort to spanner the car.
dont accept just half the entry . and fuel
unless the driver is a top named driver who would add
some street cred to .

I would go along with that - general running time works out to be in the region of £1000 per hour on the track if you ammortise all the running costs plus travelling costs and entry fee

[zefarelly]

i'm working on this at the moment for Chimay 3 hour . . .I'm hatching a team plan as well . . . .

costs will be inclusive of a very good knees up as well, naturally !

[MGDavid]

This all rests uneasy with me, especially in light of other thread re the MSA's role, maintaining that 'we' are amateurs and should be separated from professionals - much of the above sounds far too professional to me - and too much bean-counter influence as well I dare say...

[simon drabble]

well its very simple as an owner I see no reason asto why I should pay the prep costs! The full costs of doing the 6 Hour race was in the region of £15k. If I had only charged the other two drivers for the entry fee I would have been seriously out of pocket! I work out all costs plus a contribution torwards engine and gearbox overhaul and divide by number of drivers. For insurance Egger Lawson are superb and the cheapest.

[Al Weyman]

How on earth do you break that down to 15k Simon and if so and I am not doubting you how on earth does anyone afford it! Different league to me thats for sure.

[simon drabble]

that is total cost of the weekend, three spanners, three drivers, fuel insurance, prep and post race, the 6 hour race is 9 hours in total tracktime, so a set of tyres, etc etc it is frightening how quickly it all adds up. We agreed to do it properly as we were looking to get up the grid - we finished 4th, 40 secs behind third after 6 hours racing due to a dodgy call by the marshalls on the restart (we were held back a lap in the pits) so I would say we more or less accomplished what we set out to achieve. The extra lights were £500! There is a very nice photo of me in the car during the race in teh latest issue of Vintage Racecar Journal!!

[daj]

So do we generally feel that £400 is a good round figure to ask for a 45 or 1 hour shared race then?

[simon drabble]

plus share of entry fee and insurance? If you car is well prepped and competitive that is an extremely good price - for your co driver!!!

[zefarelly]

400 is a bargain, I haven't worked it out in any great accuracy but the 'real cost of an hours race over a weekend is about a grand I reckon, and I do everything myself.

[Peter Mallett]

Well you might want to look at it from a slightly different perspective.

Entry fees for a 45 mins race are (say) £350.00. You'll be rebuilding the engine after eight hours (if you are me) so sharing the car makes no difference to that.

Fuel? Say £150.00.

Tyres. They last eight hours and that's my season so no need to factor them in.

Insurance. I don't recall what it is but say £250.00 for a race.

Shared costs - 350.00 + 150 + 250.00 = £750.00.

£400.00 looks good to me.

[MGDavid]

PM, please explain the 'fuel=£150 for a 45 min race' -
my example is 45 mins plus 30 min practice = 1.25 hrs x 80mph ave = 100 miles. At 10 to the gallon thats 10 galls= 45 litres = 40 quid, say 50 quid with some additive. But yes I agree your general principle.

[Al Weyman]

I would have thought he would be down to 6 or 7 to the gallon tops, my Chev does 4 to 5mpg racing and the Capri 3 litre never was very frugal even as a road car. Hey whats this additive stuff , I thought that was illegal :-). Also Peter is probably talking about fuel getting to the meeting and back as well. £400 sounds a very fair price and I would be happy to pay that.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

PM, please explain the 'fuel=£150 for a 45 min race' -
my example is 45 mins plus 30 min practice = 1.25 hrs x 80mph ave = 100 miles. At 10 to the gallon thats 10 galls= 45 litres = 40 quid, say 50 quid with some additive. But yes I agree your general principle.

Doesn't matter really but at Combe last year I used £80.00, 15 mins practice and 30 mins race. But the breakdown is only numbers.

Also I'm excluding the cost of going because quite simply, if I'm going then I'll go second driver or not. Its the same principle as the engine thing.

I'm not running a business nor do I intend to rip people off. I have a normally reliable car. This year at Spa was exceptional so I refunded some of my co-driver's money.

[simon drabble]

Peter you are clearly a more generous man than me!!! My engine rebuilds are every 10 hours which at Racing Fabs will be in the region of GBP3500 assuming no horror stories, tyres realistically will (at best) last 10 hours GBP750 etc... if most of the driver is shared driving then it seems pretty fair to spread that cost. I have found that if its clear that the car is well prepped with 2 spanners at the meeting to change set up and ratios etc then there is no problem in charging for it - believe me I have some of the tightest co drivers and they pay! However if you are happy to wear that cost then that is very generous of you!

[Peter Mallett]

Simon,

I'm clearly more than you in a lot of ways but I'm not being generous. I was talking about a series of 45mins/1hour races, not an event that would require a rebuild immediately afterwards. In that case I would factor in the engine rebuild and other consummables as well.

[Al Weyman]

What car do you drive Simon as a matter of interest?

My Camaro for example if nothing goes amiss i would reckon at least 3 seasons without a teardown on the engine, I had one that had been raced for 6 seasons and was still going strong! The Dunlop Tyres we race on in the CTRCC the lads with the heavy cars tell me they are good for a season and I believe Peter may be racing on similiar rubber, also what is a paid spanner man????.

I think the whole discussion is really irrelevant as we are talking about a vast array of different machinery, formulas and situations and I am sure from the sound of it your car is obviously a sophisticated well run almost professional effort (maybe it is professional I don't know) where as ours or at least mine are far more grass roots and therefore easier and cheaper to prepare as in my case at least I do all my own work.

[simon drabble]

I am very jealous of anyone with the know how to do their own spannering!! I race a 60's sports prototype - Merlyn Mk6 with a lotus twin cam and Hewland mk 9 5 speed box. In the tradition of all sports racers it shakes to bits if not constantly spannered!! I have done tin tops and agree that they are much lower maintenance and often wish I had stayed doing tin tops! I have Zef constantly reminding me how you can race successfully on a realistic budget but fortunately for the preppers the number of people like you and Zef who build and race are few!!

[Peter Mallett]

Just to remind us where we started from.

Originally Posted by daj

Just out of interest, With the Top hat race`s being two driver`s with the Groovy baby series now. What is a resonable figure to ask for a second driver? Not trying to make money just want to be fair. .

The points made by Simon and Zef are based on one-off long distance races that require a new engine at the start and a rebuild at the finish. Thus the type of costs are much bigger than for a series of shorter races over a season.

I base my comments on the series of shorter races and if I'm going to be there anyway why should I factor in the costs of rebuilds etc. when I'm going to get that hit on my own or with a second driver?

If you enter as a team and do all the races together that changes things again because obviously you both get the same benefit from the arrangement thus a flat 50/50 split on all costs would be reasonable.

So as Al says we can't generalise.