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Old 26 Feb 2002, 17:47 (Ref:223009)   #1
neilap
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Does the car make the man or does the man make the car?

I tend to agree with the sentiments of JPM on this one. MS is the best driver on the grid but it is not just because of his skill. http://www.dailyf1.com/en/news/2002/february/26g.shtml
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 17:52 (Ref:223011)   #2
Don K
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Don K has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Las week I did some statistics on the results of the last 3 seasons:

Driver: 32%
Team: 68%
Engine: 0% (!)

(I was actually expecting something like 25% - 50% - 25%)
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 17:53 (Ref:223013)   #3
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KC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridKC should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Its the chicken and the egg. Which came first. Michael Schumacher is not very fast oputside of his car, be it a Bennetton or a Ferrari. I do think a driver like Michael Schumacher can drive a team to be better, he has illustrated this with both Bennetton and Ferrari. However, he also did this at the expense of his teammate.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 18:08 (Ref:223023)   #4
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
JPM phrased it rather too strongly. To take his reported view to its logical end there would be no difference on-track between himself and Ralf in identical cars. There's no doubt in my mind that some difference can be made-up by the driver - especially if you put qualities such as even-headedness and consistency into your judgement of the skill of a driver (qualities that JPM would do well to nurture, and indeed which he was forced to re-assess mid-season last year).

You're never going to get a Minardi on the top of the podium just because of driver skill, but I believe you can at least make up one or two places on the next best car. I'd love to Fisichella in a Mclaren, for example, and see if he could get a few more wins off of Schumacher than DC managed.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 18:43 (Ref:223044)   #5
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JR27 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In the 70's when I first started to attend Grand Prix's...it was the driver who made the difference...reason was this was the "Kit Car Era" when most teams had Cosworths and Hewlands....so we can savor race wins by the Monza Gorilla in a March (yes...Ronnie also won in a March at Monza in 1976), John Watson in a Penske, Alan Jones in a Shadow, James Hunt in a Hesketh......the Turbo Era changed the emphasis to the car (engine) and today the current "Manufacturers Era" continues that trend with all the driver aides/"gizmo's".

I agree with KC that Schumacher is/was the "driving force" (my quote) for the Ferrari & Benetton teams and I beleive that this is THE most important role for todays modern driver. He ( the driver)IS the catalyist for a teams ultimate success.....the team must beleive that their #1 driver is the difference maker for the team IF the team can produce a package that gives their man a chance to win. Lotus felt this way when Ayrton came on board in '85, Williams realized "Our Nige" was a difference maker when he returned for his 2nd stint, and McLaren last year had a difficult year when Mika was not on top of his game.....this supposedly was the reason for Newey's flirtation with Jaguar in that he didn't have a lot of confidence in David being able to win a WDC ( winning races..yes....the WDC...no).

The "poster boys" for the theory that the driver is secondary to the car is Williams Engineering. Frank & Patrick now seem to believe that the car/engine/tire package is much more important than the driver in todays F1...the driver's are interchangable...Nige & Damon won WDC but were replaced. Ralf was the "flavor of the year" until being shown up by Juan in the 2nd half of the season....and Frank still has an option on Jenson in this game of musical chairs....job security for Williams drivers in recent years is a myth.......but in this current incarnation of F1 one can understand why. Sir Frank & Patrick are pretty smart cookies..............
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 19:14 (Ref:223074)   #6
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Speed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by JR27
this supposedly was the reason for Newey's flirtation with Jaguar in that he didn't have a lot of confidence in David being able to win a WDC ( winning races..yes....the WDC...no).
EI ? (he's good, but not so much), PDLR ? (don't think so, either)
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 19:19 (Ref:223079)   #7
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Number Juan has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
its the golden ratio isnt it? its gotta be perfect to win - look at Rubens, perfectly capable of winning a championship at Ferrari or even giving TGF a run for his money. Michael has the golden ratio of Ability:Team:Luck it has been shown in past years - with Damon Hill in 94 and 95 being either unlucky or not beleiving in his own abilities.

Rubens needs a little more luck and the beleif of his team - no driver can do it on his own - he needs the team and the luck to succeed.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 19:32 (Ref:223086)   #8
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think what JPM was suggesting is that he and RS will not bet that far from each other. The reason that MS was like that is that the team made it like that. Even if MS is better than RB, which I believe he is. It is not just his ability that allows him to win in the fashion he does.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 19:40 (Ref:223094)   #9
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Speedworx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Sadly its the car who makes the man.

If you put MS into the Minardi, he would not win races. He would finish around where Minardi finish now. Simply because F1 is all about the car and not drivers.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 19:56 (Ref:223111)   #10
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Hi Speed

I wasn't suggesting that Newey was thinking of going to Jag because of the quality of the their driving tandem..... Rahal and Newey were best buds...... and there was the challenge of bringing Jag up to the standards set by Williams/McLaren/Ferrari in the next couple of years....
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 20:48 (Ref:223184)   #11
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
If you put MS in a Minardi he'd likely beat the current pair of Minardi drivers. The gap to the next team is too high in the case of Minardi to expect any driver to get very much farther up the grid, but he'd narrow the gap. But - within weeks sopnsorship money would fly into that team, and top class engineers and managers too. The quality of the driver is an essential component in the team's value as a brand, and hence its ability to attract finance.

Frank Williams can't be that extreme in his philosophy - if he was he'd just have two paying drivers.

Last edited by Glen; 26 Feb 2002 at 20:51.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 21:19 (Ref:223222)   #12
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SL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Just as a guide. The one time MS raced at Le Mans in the junior team he was the fastest driver there over a few laps. Not ideal for Le Mans but great for F1.

Hopefully we will see Montoya and Villneuve there soon to see how they compare.

By the way Irvine, Herbert, Brundell have all done well there all three been 1st or second overall.

In my view it is the driver as he can shape the team around him, after all who was MS when he joined Benntton ? Giving the feedback and giving results counts in develpoing the car. A few $$$£££ helps as well. I agree with above, put MS in a low placed car and within 2 years they will be on the podium. His name counts and people will follow.

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Old 26 Feb 2002, 21:31 (Ref:223232)   #13
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Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!Mr V has a real shot at the championship!
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Just By the way Irvine, Herbert, Brundell have all done well there all three been 1st or second overall.
and irvine, who most people think of as a third class driver on this site, still holds the lap record for le mans, which has stood since '93
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 21:43 (Ref:223240)   #14
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Ok but what will happen is he will build a team that can make a car worthy of winning. Michael is much of an exception to the rule. JV is as good a driver, I feel as MS. However he does not have the team nor the car. If JV was in MS's place he would be 4 time champ and would be favorite for this season too. The car makes the man. If it is not good the driver cant exploit what it has. Watching F1 I notice that the drivers are the best in the world. Their skill levels are very close. It really imo comes down to what they drive. Look at Mika! The car made him.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 21:48 (Ref:223244)   #15
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Glen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGlen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I don't believe that Villeneuve could have achieved what Schumacher has at Ferrari. Schumacher doesn't winge, he works. Jaques may well be able to put together a comparable lap in equal equipment, as could quite a few others - but one lap is not the job. Many drivers could have won the WDC in Jaque's Williams, but I can't think of one other that could have built such a solid team aroud him as Michael has at Ferrari.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 21:50 (Ref:223245)   #16
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Damon should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by hakkiman
Sadly its the car who makes the man.

If you put MS into the Minardi, he would not win races. He would finish around where Minardi finish now. Simply because F1 is all about the car and not drivers.
True but not quite so literaly. Sure TGF or JPM wouldn't win in a Minardi but they could drag it far higher up the grid than Alex Yoong. The car does play a massive part, but a good driver can make any car do something. That is why beating ones team mate is probably the most satisfying accomplishment, particularly for the lower teams drivers.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 22:14 (Ref:223260)   #17
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The car will only make the man only if the man is good. Frank replaced Damon, who put that car on the front row of every race, with HHF who managed to win 1 race while Jacques won the championship. There was nothing wrong with the 97 Williams, but it certainly didn't make the man. Will teh man make the car? Most definitely. Put MSch in a McLaren or Williams or even the Renault and see it go; he'd probably win the WDC in the Williams or McLaren. There have been many instances where the number two driver of the winning team didn't do so good, but I cannot remember how it turned out last year or the year before.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 22:59 (Ref:223282)   #18
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Put MSch in a McLaren or Williams or even the Renault and see it go; he'd probably win the WDC in the Williams or McLaren.
Second that.
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Old 26 Feb 2002, 23:52 (Ref:223316)   #19
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JPM is right, driver can't make up that much on his own. Schu wouldn't have won the WDC in a Mclaren or Williams last year because they weren't reliable enough.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 00:10 (Ref:223325)   #20
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JPM is right, driver can't make up that much on his own. Schu wouldn't have won the WDC in a Mclaren or Williams last year because they weren't reliable enough.
Perfectly correct. However, I was talking about this year, and I would be right in saying that the managers of just about any F1 team would give anything to have MSch on board. Frank Williams said those words. So yes!! The driver is th emost important component in the team, and the car is almost, but not quite, as important. I would say 70% driver and 30%car. If I had a dodgy car like a Jordan and needed the best driver to bring the car home in the highest possible position, I would not hesitate to ring MSch.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 00:27 (Ref:223330)   #21
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BBKing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If you put Schumacher in any other team it is likely that these 3 things would happen:
1. Brawn and Byrnie will join him
2. His teammate will end up as his slave.
3. I would be happy because he would leave the evil empire headless....LOL

Going back to the topic. Since Senna died Max and Bernie are making the cars even more important than the driver. What is the point if anybody can put his hands in a F1 car knowing that there is little danger in it. Think in what was like for Fangio to go inside the car in times when 3 or 5 drivers would die racing during the season.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 00:36 (Ref:223336)   #22
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Its not a black and white scenario. It is a combination of good drivers, and fast cars. If the driver didnt matter, the order after qualifying would see teammates lining up alongside each other at each race.
When one driver gets pole and his teammate gets 4th, the difference is the driver. When Williams out-qualifies Jordan, its the car.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 00:50 (Ref:223346)   #23
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Champ69 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
its the driver that makes the car.

If you look at qualifying results, if team mates are close to each other than the car has qualified at its optimum but if the team mates have a fair differance between them you need to look at the rerasons why.

It could be a bad setup, strange conditions or problems with the car or it could be the driver, Look at the great drivers of F1 Schumi, Senna Prost they take a car and take it to the limit.

A car can only take you so far, a great driver can win you the championship.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 01:12 (Ref:223353)   #24
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I agree with what JPM said in that "it takes more than the driver to win. The car is more important than the driver."

but i only agree to an extent, eg no matter who is driving a minardi this year they are not going to win a race. but if you put a great driver in an average car they have a good chance to win a race (look at damon hill in 1997).

And once you get a good car the driver matter a hell of a lot. look at ferrari.
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Old 27 Feb 2002, 01:29 (Ref:223357)   #25
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBKing
[B]If you put Schumacher in any other team it is likely that these 3 things would happen:
1. Brawn and Byrnie will join him
2. His teammate will end up as his slave.
3. I would be happy because he would leave the evil empire headless....LOL

1. That is because they understand him and work well together. No one is as good as Schumi and his team mates failed and look what they have achieved in F1. Not much
3. evil empire if you belive that then I feel very sorry for you. ;( ;(
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