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Old 6 Jun 2002, 15:44 (Ref:306493)   #1
Crash and Burn
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Crash and Burn should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Honda Engine Latest

Honda has decided against running their upgraded 2002 qualifying engine in this weekend's Canadian Grand Prix, revealed race and test team manager Shuhei Nakamoto.
The unit was tested last week at Silverstone and Paul Ricard by their partner teams Jordan and BAR, and gave encouraging results, but the Japanese manufacturer has decided to delay its launch so as to allow further testing.

Both teams will be provided with a further development on the qualifying power packs that they used in Austria instead.

"We've decided to carry out additional testing before the final implementation," Nakamoto said in a press release. "We will race in Canada with a further developed engine, with increased performance based on the engine used in qualifying in Austria."


Takuma Sato finished seventh and 2.34 seconds off Rubens Barrichello's fastest time using the unit, which had not even been mapped before it was run, in the final day of testing at Silverstone last week.

Its characteristics were reported to be "very different" to their current V10, and the team was believed to be encouraged by the results. However, the driveability still needs work.

Jordan and BAR had both experienced disappointing starts to the 2002 season, and all four drivers spoke of the need for more power from their V10 power units.


The Irish team recently redeemed themselves at the Austrian and Monaco Grands Prix, when Giancarlo Fisichella's four-point haul moved them into sixth place in the Constructors' FIA Formula One World Championship™. BAR are yet to register on the title standings
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 16:25 (Ref:306538)   #2
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Sato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Honda seem to be a shadow what they used to be last time they were in F1 . Im really surprised about their performance.
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 16:27 (Ref:306539)   #3
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I wonder if the motor was a flop? Sato did say that the motor was more powerful but just not as driveable yet. It seems the motor will not be introduced for a couple of races, at least.
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 16:31 (Ref:306541)   #4
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Sato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
but Bar and Jordan must be so disapointed about not running the new engine . As they have both been talking up Honda's big step forward for Canada. Now canada is here and they are standing still , where as other teams are striding forward .
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 16:52 (Ref:306548)   #5
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av8rirl should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
And remember that this new engine is the one that both Jordan and BAR expected to have at the start of the season!!!
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 17:57 (Ref:306569)   #6
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
All I can say is that the engine better be the king of kings and lord of lords, conquering lion of the tribe of Judah... well, as far as motors are concerned.
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 18:56 (Ref:306610)   #7
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i'll have some of what neilap is smoking!
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 19:57 (Ref:306674)   #8
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Here's a hint I am from Jamaica!!

But seriously, I am one of the few Honda fanatics on this board. It is so frustrating to see BMW be so highly praised, to see Toyota being rumored to have the 2nd most powerful motor in F1 and then hear that Honda has once again delayed their new motor. I hope that angels descend from above when the motor is in full song (Hallelujah!!). IMO, if it is not the best thing on the grid, after all this frustration and effort then its a failure!

Last edited by neilap; 6 Jun 2002 at 19:58.
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 20:12 (Ref:306692)   #9
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Sato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I really cant see Honda just bringing in a mega engine .

Surley its got to be a step at a time . And slowly over a year or 2 they may get to the same level as BMW etc .
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 21:56 (Ref:306769)   #10
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Mania should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Another broken promise by Honda. But then, we should be used to it by now.
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Old 6 Jun 2002, 22:12 (Ref:306793)   #11
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Wrex is going for a new lap record!Wrex is going for a new lap record!Wrex is going for a new lap record!Wrex is going for a new lap record!Wrex is going for a new lap record!Wrex is going for a new lap record!
If Honda seriously want to move forward, the should follow Mercedes and BMW's example and get involved with a level one team.

Neither Jordan or BAR are really great developement teams with experience at running at the front.
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 01:40 (Ref:306908)   #12
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WREX, let's sort out the engine problem first.
Lst year, Renault introduced a new engine and it was rubbish. But Renault perservered because they knew the direction they were headed and finally produced the results towards the last few races. Now they have a good engine.
Honda never had that bad an engine compared with last years Renault (with problems). But Honda are not moving forward in engine development - and the reliability now is suspect.
I honestly don't think that Jordan is a rubbish team, but I feel that the Engine must be developed with the entire running gear via the electronics. Unless the whole thing works in unison these days, the car is not a goer. Having said that, their achievement right now is solely dependant on some from the top 4 teams blowing up - not a good state of affairs.

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Old 7 Jun 2002, 01:40 (Ref:306909)   #13
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Honda has admitted that they have too much on their plate. They've got a full works CART program, Involvement in WSB, supplying two Full Works teams in F1. I don't see BMW in CART or Renault in WSB.
Honda will pick up their slack, the reason their engine hasn't been good this year is because it's very revolutionary. The super light engine coupled with the 90 degree V angle has they engine suffering from tremendous reliability problems. Hence they have had to detune it. Remember Renault last year? Honda's having the same problems except they've gotta supply two teams. Which means development is slower. When they do get the kinks worked out of this engine, it'll be very good. I figure by Monza the engine will get a good step up in performance. Just give them sometime. They'll dominate...
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 05:02 (Ref:307008)   #14
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f1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridf1manoz should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Honda have vast experience in many fields of motorsport but their lack of pace and progress over the past couple of years has been surprising. But it doesn't help when BAR cannot design a good car while Jordan's fortunes have ebbed and flowed over the past years.

Honda will eventually get it right but it will take more time than usual.
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 05:44 (Ref:307025)   #15
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I feel they need to invest more in F1. Not necessarily just money but employees. Williams is practically a BMW team. Jordan just gets motors from Honda. I feel that is where the main difference in performance can be made up. The current motor has been upgraded in practically every race so far this season. I feel that it’s the combination of chassis and motor that is the problem. Honda needs a "car", a homologation, unison. When the two entities become one I feel they can win races.

I don’t think any of the other teams in F1 do anywhere close to the amount of racing that Honda does, and does so well. I suppose the saying "good things come to those who wait" applies here. It’s just the wait that is the killer. I want to watch races and feel the way Ferrari fans feel. They know that with all things "equal" MS/Ferrari will win!
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 14:27 (Ref:307404)   #16
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BootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridBootsOntheSide should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Why are they listening to Sato's comments as to whether its drivable? The guy couldn't drive anything
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 15:22 (Ref:307508)   #17
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I beg to differ!
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Old 7 Jun 2002, 19:14 (Ref:307669)   #18
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Why are they listening to Sato's comments as to whether its drivable? The guy couldn't drive anything
thats why he won the f3 title then? because he couldn't drive anything? why does everyone keep on about him? the guy has amazing talent, he's just going through a bad period! all he needs is just 1 points scoring finish and he'll prove all his doubters (i.e....you!) wrong!
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Old 8 Jun 2002, 01:03 (Ref:307845)   #19
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What's wrong with the super lightweight coupled with a 90 degree V engine? I suppose if the engine was too light, there might not be sufficient torsional rigidity and the suspension induced stresses might cause problems. But what's wrong with a 90 degree V engine?

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Old 8 Jun 2002, 17:42 (Ref:308154)   #20
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From my understanding a 90degree v8 would be be fine however, a v10 creates more vibration.
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Old 8 Jun 2002, 19:13 (Ref:308208)   #21
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Originally posted by PoweredByHonda
Honda has admitted that they have too much on their plate. They've got a full works CART program, Involvement in WSB, supplying two Full Works teams in F1. I don't see BMW in CART or Renault in WSB.
Honda will pick up their slack, the reason their engine hasn't been good this year is because it's very revolutionary. The super light engine coupled with the 90 degree V angle has they engine suffering from tremendous reliability problems. Hence they have had to detune it. Remember Renault last year? Honda's having the same problems except they've gotta supply two teams. Which means development is slower. When they do get the kinks worked out of this engine, it'll be very good. I figure by Monza the engine will get a good step up in performance. Just give them sometime. They'll dominate...
You forgot the add that Honda looks alot better than Renault did at this point in the season.
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Old 8 Jun 2002, 19:29 (Ref:308226)   #22
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Sato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSato san should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
the difference now compared to the past is .....

i remember Senna back in 1991 saying that because of the pressure that Williams with the Renualt RS 4 engine was putting on Mclaren with the Honda engine ...that Honda in Japan shut down all R&D departments in other racing series to focus 100% of their efforts totally to giving Mclaren a better engine to fight off the Williams /Renualt threat .
Mansell was amazed at Honda's total commitment .

Honda today , seems a very different Manufactuer in terms of commitment and sucess .

It seems its only for Fisi's brilliance that Honda got a car on the 3rd row today.

Last edited by Sato san; 8 Jun 2002 at 19:32.
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Old 9 Jun 2002, 03:15 (Ref:308435)   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by Valve Bounce
What's wrong with the super lightweight coupled with a 90 degree V engine? I suppose if the engine was too light, there might not be sufficient torsional rigidity and the suspension induced stresses might cause problems. But what's wrong with a 90 degree V engine?

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There's nothing "technically" wrong with it. Indeed it's a good concept, lighter engines, lower center of gravity. However, since it's a radical new engine, there's obviously teething problems. Too much vibration, and the engine has a design flaw in a one of the valves causing Honda to detune it. The valve problem has just been fixed but Honda believes they need more testing time to be able to bring the new engine in.
But when they do have everything sorted out, the engine will be able to challenge the likes of BMW and Ferrari
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Old 9 Jun 2002, 04:20 (Ref:308445)   #24
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I've posted this before, but I'd just post it once again to reinforce my argument. I am not sure that a 90 degree V10 should have any more balance problems than any other angle. It's been many decades since I consulted my Applied Mechanics books on this topic, my branch being Civil.
However, the point I want to make is that just developing the engine on its own is not enough. Once the engine is reliable, the entire running system must be developed as a unit to integrate all the functions of the electronic black box and the stresses induced by the rear suspension. We are talking about zillions of testing/development laps on a test circuit. Engine mapping to control variable valve timing, valve overlap, cam profiles, fuel mix, engine braking, launch control, TRAX, gearbox and clutches, differential, and probably several other functions I don't know about. It is imperative that Honda have their own car to test and develop, not part of the thing for two other teams.
What do you think?

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Old 9 Jun 2002, 04:54 (Ref:308446)   #25
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neilap should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"the entire running system must be developed as a unit to integrate all the functions of the electronic black box and the stresses induced by the rear suspension"

I agree 100%. I dont feel that they need to have a Honda team, even though it would be nice. They really need to put more into the teams. It helps in engine development to have two teams. However it takes away from the teams too in the time and money that can be spent on making the motor and chassis one unit.

"Engine mapping to control variable valve timing" I did not think that was allowed. They should allow variable lift too.
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