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Old 8 Dec 2003, 16:57 (Ref:806772)   #1
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GA : shocking fuel tank penalities

I'm not a specialist of GranAm, but I'm surprised to learn on Jérôme Mugnier's site that Kevin Buckler's team, who'll claim another victory at Daytona 24 hours, will have to face a decreased fuel tank capacity from 100 liters to 65 liters...

That's a real unfair way to close the door to victory to a car deserving the possibility to claim it...

Is there any explanations for that ?

Last edited by Fab; 8 Dec 2003 at 16:58.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 17:10 (Ref:806778)   #2
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Duffacus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The organisers have lost the plot all together?
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 17:14 (Ref:806782)   #3
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jhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridjhansen should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
This is to be expected.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 17:17 (Ref:806785)   #4
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
that is defininative of the junk that sportscar racing fans disagree and dislike about the GA, way to screw the big one here. They should up DP power and give them 150 litre tanks so the DP's would be by and large the winners everytime, handicapping and just abusing the categories everyone knows about and making it their own version is so perverse. GT class and GTS class cars are known as such world over, except in GA's bubble come on- The DP's are the Grand Am's unique category, so tweak this one as much as you can to increase its performance- that is all that needs to be done- 65 Litres! what !

edit: no autocensor dodges, please. - p-c

Last edited by paul-collins; 8 Dec 2003 at 17:24.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 17:22 (Ref:806790)   #5
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Grand Am is trying to change their GT class to something a little more akin to SCCA GT2 or the GA Cup GS1 class - partly to completely sever any similarities to IMSA/ACO, and partly to ensure that their top class (in principle) is their top class (on the lap charts). It was to be expected, particularly in light of the GT class' level of competitiveness over the first half of the season.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 17:35 (Ref:806800)   #6
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Duffacus should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Its stupid though, why do they have to punish a GT car just so one of their "fabulous DP's" can get the victory?
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:03 (Ref:806820)   #7
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pirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridpirenzo should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Disgraceful. GA have lost the plot completely.

I'm afraid it's their problem if one of their precious DP's can't beat a Porsche GT3.

I can't belive it honestly, i didn't think any series could come up with such a ludicrous and extremely unfair ruling.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:10 (Ref:806827)   #8
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But this rule is assessed on the GA's GT car or just ACO's GT car. What exactly is Buckler running now that GARRA will have the 911 cup car as GT?
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:12 (Ref:806830)   #9
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Tim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridTim Northcutt should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I call it "Par for the Course" when it comes to the NASCAR/Grand Am apporach to what I ranted about in another thread about a week ago:

"Contrived Competition"

It is also why I am so down on what they are doing and then trying to pawn it off as "real racing"....
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:15 (Ref:806832)   #10
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This was news 6 months ago. It has allready been implemented 3 months ago.

You guys just don't seem to get it. GrandAm's GT class has nothing to do with the ACO GT class. GA wants to have a GT class between the ACO GT level and GA's old GSI class.

The GSI class had 16 Gallon tanks. GA's new GT class(SGS) is made up of the GSI cars. Why they hell wouldn't they use a 16 gallon tank?

If Buckler wants to race in GA hes going to have to meet GA's own rules. Why should GA bend backwords for some ALMS teams that only run Daytona???

Last edited by Patrick B; 8 Dec 2003 at 18:17.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:34 (Ref:806849)   #11
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
OK then I'll start a world rugby league (union rules of course) and the point will vary and so will number of players- i will cal it rugby but i will use a square inflateable and allow forward passing from any player, and a try is 10 points. is it still rugby? would you play rugby in this league and still call yourself a real rugby player?
so these are no longer GT cars, and you call them GT, they don't play by any recognized GT rules but what the hell if you race in this league they are the 'gt' cars. anyone want to play in our world championship better conform to our rules or well you won't get the chnce to play here with you rugby ball and teams. so my new world rugby league is now not really rugby world over, it is a sham of a match and a parody of rugby world over- but i'll call it a footie ball and call the game rugby anyway.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 18:40 (Ref:806856)   #12
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dretceterini should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You got it!
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 21:40 (Ref:806976)   #13
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billnchristy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quit making it sound like a grand conspiracy.

The goal of the GA GT class is to be Porsche cup, Ferrari Challenge... type cars not true "GT" as we know them race cars.

In their rules they specify the gas tank size.

His car happens to have an ACO "GT" tank and has to change to run GA spec.

This is no different to last year when Dyson racing could run their MkIII at ALMS and GA races. They switched to and from carbon brakes to stay within the rules.

The whole goal of this "lesser" GT is once again...Cost cutting!!

Look at the Ferrari 360GTC and look at a challenge car...whats the price difference?

How about a porsche cup and RSR...big differences eh? (100k for cup 340k for RSR)

Yeah it sucks that the two series arent compatible anymore...so what!?!

GT specs specify a 17 gal. tank for all models.

SGS allows a 25 gal. tank.

Naysayers should really look at these rules as they provide (gasp!) a wide selection of cars and (gasp!) a non ridiculous level of preperation meaning (gasp!) more people can get involved in pro racing...

Oh wait, thats a bad thing...i forgot...
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 21:44 (Ref:806978)   #14
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billnchristy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Before the storm comes down think of it this way...

If you want to see the flashy million dollar GTs go see ALMS and watch everyone follow around the dominate car for that year (not necessarily a bad thing)

If you want to go see a series with a good (possiblity) of varying cars with maybe not so hot drivers working their butts off to race and win go see GA.

I see it for this: A very nice and well prepared Grassroots scene. The teams are very cordial and friendly, the cars are very well prepared...but it is true, they are second teir cars, but that isnt anything to scoff at I cannot afford a 5th teir car!! These guys and gals race their hearts out every time they are on track, and it shows...at least give them that credit.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 22:26 (Ref:807014)   #15
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
if they are going to run 'GT' class then call it something else, since they aren't real GT's SportsMake or keep the name GrandSports- there is no conspiracy here implied (sorry if you misunderstood) but an abuse of the language used and agreed upon by EVERY racer and team owner in the known world-except outside the GrandAm office.
and price differences are do to performance differences- for good reason. It isn't a bad thing to get more folks involved, its fantastic, but stop passing it off as GT racing when it isn't, it is their version of it and will cause mass confusion for up and comers in racing and teams thinking they can go forward into international competition when they can't and will be outclassed. Grand Am really should think of their terminology and semantics (because this is realy what we are arguing) as they are trying to pass off their thouroughbred ponies as real Race horses which they aren'tIt is exactly going Grassroots, a professional grassroots series, and with the Daytona 24 and the current naming trouble they have made the famed 24 hour race a playground instead of a battlefield, as it showed when the Porsche GT stomped and won the thing. I do watch the races, I understand what GA is and the competition is good- but with so many amateurish and family race teams going up against the DP's and some TA cars it seems all for naught- after all a win is a win, but a Grand Am GT win will be but a national win on par with speedvision Touring in stature(which is tough i realize) and not a true GT as is known the world over- I realize that GA is not wanting to be international but neither was the IRL...I just feel that GA is reaching and doing what they can to make the series more spectacular when it doesn't have to be, just call them what they are. and use the proper names for things it is just sickening the way they butcher the language or Sportsracing.
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Old 8 Dec 2003, 23:13 (Ref:807035)   #16
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So is Speed GT not a GT series? How about the British GT? Neither of them use the same rules as the ACO GT class.

The ACO's rules should only apply to the ALMS and LMES. No other sanctioning bodys should care if thier rules arn't the same.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 00:10 (Ref:807068)   #17
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billnchristy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks Patrick, I was thinking the same thing.

Besides GT means Gran Turismo or more or less a better than touring car right?

I think that is a very suitable name.

They used to have a GTS is GA too, it was not Corvette C5R GTS it was a Grand Touring car with more horsepower...A Grand Touring Super...hmmmm...

There is nothing wrong with the names, there is something wrong with the preconcieved notions.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 00:23 (Ref:807075)   #18
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LouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridLouisTheShark should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
From FIA's GT rules:

"The right is reserved, by the Sporting Authority of the
relevant Championship, to adjust the size of the fuel tank to
maximise equality of performance."

Unless something changed for 2004, in 2003, the ACO and FIA rules for GT cars are slightly different. If is okay for the ACO to change the FIA GT rules for their races and series, why is it not okay for Grand Am to adjust the rules for their series?
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 01:17 (Ref:807095)   #19
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gttouring should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
the Speed Gt is a real series, so is Brit GT- no preconcieved notion
but i was riding the previous Definition of GT in an endurance race series as per (Lemans, ALMS, and GA) and GA has just changed it for themselves primarily to enhance DP performance- secondly as a sideeffect to lessen the cost of racing in a high profile series.
teh Daytona 24 is what happens to elevate GA into playing internationally as an Endurance Sportscar series, it doesn't want to be, it says it isn't yet the Daytona 24 makes it one. It is ok to change rules to better the series, GA,ALMS,FIA all can do this no problem really.
I give up-
as stated the Plot on this one was lost.
And Patrick B-if so many sanctioning bodies exist with out a care to what anyone else's rules are then how does this affect sponsor dollars going around and team budgets- say they want to campaign a race here and there and need to redo (buy and set up ) a car because of restrictors and Fuel tanks and aero, minimum wieght etc. and so many series existing doesn't this just water it all down?

by the way a simple answer to this queation with out needing to reveal anything
Billnchristy, and Louis The Shark, do you have any affiliation with GA? (ie. involved with race teams or managment?-yes or no will suffice if you'd like)
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 03:49 (Ref:807139)   #20
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no, though I do talk regularly to a team that ran last year and hopefully will this year. (mustang on steroids)
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 03:57 (Ref:807141)   #21
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Will the "mustang on steroids" run next year? or are they still looking at a DP?
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 04:07 (Ref:807145)   #22
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No kidding?!
they should run that car again! they could take the whole thing- the DP they'd run wouldn't have near the power, shame really.
they did great last year- any thoughts on a TA campaign?
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 04:23 (Ref:807153)   #23
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Well, A TA campaign is dependent on a TA season, which is currently dependent on a CART season. Talk about a house of Cards.
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 06:18 (Ref:807202)   #24
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Originally posted by Patrick B
This was news 6 months ago. It has allready been implemented 3 months ago.

You guys just don't seem to get it. GrandAm's GT class has nothing to do with the ACO GT class. GA wants to have a GT class between the ACO GT level and GA's old GSI class.

The GSI class had 16 Gallon tanks. GA's new GT class(SGS) is made up of the GSI cars. Why they hell wouldn't they use a 16 gallon tank?

If Buckler wants to race in GA hes going to have to meet GA's own rules. Why should GA bend backwords for some ALMS teams that only run Daytona???
My appologizes, my note was not clear, and might have lead the thread in a wrong way, but I'm responsible of it.

It was no offense at all against GA rules, and I didn't know that the old GSI class had a 16 gallons tank (is that 65 liters ?) ; my surprise is about the very small capacity of the tank ; it leads the car to stop very often, although we want to see the cars on the track, not in the pits refuelling ; why not a larger tank to DPs, and a normal one to GTs ? I understand the point for GA, this is just a question about the capacity, nothing more.

After how long time race have they to stop to refuel ? Half an hour ?
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Old 9 Dec 2003, 06:27 (Ref:807206)   #25
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Originally posted by billnchristy
Quit making it sound like a grand conspiracy.
You're right, Billnchristy, as I did above, I'm now sorry to open a thread this way.

I can't see any conspiracy, I'm keen to see the season opening with Daytona, and I hope I'll have the pleasure to see the DPs in flesh.

As I precised it above, the question was not to "penalized" (but I used this word, that's a mistake) the car in comparaison with other cars, the question was about a so small tank.

Maybe to encourage teams in having cars with small fuel consumption ? ACO did the same (and does again)... I wanted a debate (an open debate gathering GA and ALMS fans) on tank's capacity.

Is it really interresting to have so small tanks (I could have post the thread for ALMS rules as well) ? How many laps could you do with 65 liters (16/17 gallons ?) ? Is it not spoiling the race ?

Let's remember the catastrophical LM's years, when consumption was the main thing (75 ? middle of 80' ?)...
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