Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: FlagMarshal.com MarshalsGuide.com Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Racing Talk > Marshals Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 24 Jan 2004, 19:41 (Ref:849513)   #1
BugEyed
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Malvern Hills
Posts: 233
BugEyed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Forming up grids in the assembly area and races run to fixed times

Some clubs are considering changing from their previous practice and will attempt to form up grids in the assembly area this season. They are also considering running races to a fixed time for the race rather than a fixed number of laps. Hopefully these changes will result in a shorter gap between races, and potentially a more reliable finish time.

Anybody have any experience of this, advice on how best to affect the changes, and any pitfalls to watch out for?

Duncan

Last edited by BugEyed; 24 Jan 2004 at 19:42.
BugEyed is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 20:17 (Ref:849548)   #2
Alan Green
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
England
Doncaster
Posts: 1,190
Alan Green should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Forming up grids before they reach the startline always seems to help in cutting some time, and similarly running races to a time scale is good from a programme point of view.

However, both of these are knackered if there is an incident either on the way to the grid (which is not unknown), or during the race needing a red flag. Then your timetable is shot and you might as well have not bothered publishing it.

Also, you say about cutting the delay between races. Until you get to high championship status meetings where drivers want/have to sit on the grid for 15minutes, the length of delay between races is mainly due to clearing up from the previous race, and I'm pretty sure we do get things cleared up as quick as we possibly can.

The keys to cutting out gaps between races are get the cars and drivers lined up and ready before the end of the previous race, once the track is declared clear bring them to the grid, flash the lights and start timing - cut out the pointless formation and green flag laps.

Al.
Alan Green is offline  
__________________
Twitter @al_green_msport
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 20:24 (Ref:849552)   #3
Alan Green
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
England
Doncaster
Posts: 1,190
Alan Green should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Forgot to say, at some circuits you may not be able to form a grid before the startline due to lack of space - Using the GP loop at Donington is an option (providing the national circuit is beng used!), as is the Brooklands area at Silverstone (I think), but at Cadwell you have a problem with lack of space (as I'm sure is the case at other circuits).

Al.
Alan Green is offline  
__________________
Twitter @al_green_msport
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 20:30 (Ref:849555)   #4
mark_l
Veteran
 
mark_l's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
England
Posts: 1,646
mark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmark_l should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You can set the cars up in grid order in the assembly, but that does not mean they will arrive at the startline grid in the order they left the assembly area.

Another way of speeding up the racing is banning mechanics from the grid, how many times have we seen mechanics start checking the wheel nut tension as the 1 minute board is raised.

On smaller meeting where tyre warmers are not required, then as soon as the last car is in position on the grid the start lights should go to red, If the driver is not ready then tough luck.

It is terribly boring as a marshal stood around waiting cause the championship regs state that when the grid is formed the 10 minute board will be shown.

We're here to race and put on a show, so lets race. The spectators dont want to watch cars sitting on the grid, if they do then go to the Autosport Show.
mark_l is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 20:31 (Ref:849557)   #5
Tim Falce
Race Official
Veteran
 
Tim Falce's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
England
Very edge of S E London almost in Kent
Posts: 11,142
Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!Tim Falce is going for a new world record!
I prefer to have the grid formed in the assembly area, but still go round one lap to check conditions etc., then straight to grid and go as soon as the last person is ready, that way a few minutes of nerves are saved.
Most of our races last year were timed rather than laps. The only problem with timed races is with the dreaded yellow black, but that shouldnt be a problem now.
Tim Falce is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 20:43 (Ref:849568)   #6
diz
Veteran
 
diz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
England
Cheshire
Posts: 3,843
diz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Duncan,
Forming the grid in the assembly area - or at least 'storing them' in grid order appears to be very much the norm.
At BRSCC NW Oulton and Anglesey meetings, the lap from the assembly area to the grid counts as the green flag lap [for most classes] and once all the cars are in place, the 30 and 5 second boards are shown - in metric timing! - and the race is underway. Mechanics are not allowed on the grid. This saves the need for a second lap before the lights go green. This saves quite a few minutes within the raceday.

Fixed time, rather than fixed laps, races are also used more often than not by BRSCC NW. This is definitely a time saver and fairer to all competitors. Firstly, 10 laps take much longer in the wet than in the dry. A timetable in laps can often not be completed in wet weather - without having to shorten races at the last minute, or losing the last race to circuit curfew times.
A secondary benefit is that competitors get equal track time for their entry fee.
Gone are the complaints that 2CVs and FF1600 both get 10 laps for £165 [2003 figures - watch this space] As one class laps at a much slower lap time, therefore they get longer races and 'it isn't fair' etc., etc.
Pitfalls?
On 'timed' races, the pit crews often can't work out laps to go for their pit boards, because there is a lack of conformity as to when the chequered will be shown. Some drivers rely on their pitboards. Admittedly a 'last lap board' is displayed for the drivers to see.
BUT sometimes the leaders [lapping at 1m04s] approach the line at say 13m50s and the last lap board is expected on the next lap, but it goes out early, So they only have that lap to go, when they should be expecting two laps to plan their late race challenges. Then at the next meeting, or race on the day -same scenario - the 'last lap board' doesn't go out. So on one occasion the race time ends up as 14m54s and the next time 15m58s
Hope this helps.

Last edited by diz; 24 Jan 2004 at 20:47.
diz is offline  
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 21:00 (Ref:849578)   #7
BugEyed
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location:
Malvern Hills
Posts: 233
BugEyed should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Excellent responses so far - Thank You - keep them coming. The forming up areas at Cadwell and Mallory (for example) are somewhat "tight". How does it work at such circuits? Do you form up the grids in order with instructions as to left, center, right etc.?

Duncan
BugEyed is offline  
__________________
No longer enjoying the majority of the VSCC's events.
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 21:34 (Ref:849600)   #8
thebear
Ten-Tenths Hall of Fame
Veteran
 
thebear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
United States
85mi S. of Daytona, 125mi NE of Sebring
Posts: 1,837
thebear should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridthebear should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In the US

Quote:
Originally posted by BugEyed
Excellent responses so far - Thank You - keep them coming. The forming up areas at Cadwell and Mallory (for example) are somewhat "tight". How does it work at such circuits? Do you form up the grids in order with instructions as to left, center, right etc.?Duncan
Typically in the US cars are sorted by qualifying time on a "False Grid", let onto the course single file and split into two rows behind the pace car which moves off slowly until the field has been released (Rolling starts and maximum of two wide due to safety considerations, Speedworld Challenge notwithstanding). Stragglers are sent to wait at pit out and released at the end of the pack immediately following the green flag. Obviously, space has been provided. The pace car is in radio communications with the officials and the location of the last car is reported on the radio by the various turns so that the pace car driver can get to a respectable speed (30-40mph, depending upon the cars/course/etc.) prior to pulling into the pits and allowing the field to take the green flag. The cars are observed for passing the pace car prior to the green flag as the pace car maintains it's speed until that time. I have a Starter's license as well as a Marshal's as well as what is called an Observer in the UK.

Last edited by thebear; 24 Jan 2004 at 21:35.
thebear is offline  
__________________
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
Quote
Old 24 Jan 2004, 21:35 (Ref:849601)   #9
Pike
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location:
Cheltenham
Posts: 282
Pike should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
750 usually run to time if not before, however aint got clue how they grid up their races due to being on the bank...... if its good enough for one club then surely others can follow
Pike is offline  
__________________
You Stupid Boy!
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 00:06 (Ref:849708)   #10
Ian Sowman
Veteran
 
Ian Sowman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location:
Birmingham
Posts: 5,968
Ian Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridIan Sowman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
BRSCC Mids at Mallory (I think) send out all the 'odd' positioned cars in order first, then all the 'even' positioned cars behind them, to line up on the respective sides of the grid. Seems to work OK.
Ian Sowman is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 00:25 (Ref:849730)   #11
pixie
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 200
pixie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We have been griding up Bikes in the Collecting Area for 2 seasons now, it helps to speed the process through, the riders go to the grid, same formation, have their warm up lap back on the same spot and away. It saves lots of time.

We run 22, 10 laps races at Brands in a day, something the Car world seems to struggle to achieve !!
pixie is offline  
__________________
If you can't say something funny................say nothing
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 09:30 (Ref:849873)   #12
graeme
Veteran
 
graeme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
United Kingdom
Macclesfield
Posts: 1,513
graeme should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
750MC do seem the masters at cutting delays - they don't give green flag laps to series not using slicks - fine by me. And Lydden has to be the circuit for fast turn 'rounds (due to tight use restrictions). They have a dummy grid just before you go out onto the circuit at Paddock Bend - works very well. Why do we still have 3 minute, etc. boards in club racing? They are not needed, sometimes not used (!), and usually pushed through at x10 real time - if they aren't important, get rid of them!
graeme is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 09:43 (Ref:849879)   #13
graeme
Veteran
 
graeme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
United Kingdom
Macclesfield
Posts: 1,513
graeme should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As an aside, ever been to a Stock Car race? These guys have got minimising deadtime to an artform. While the winning car is doing a victory lap, the next race is being released. Very spectator friendly and they get bid crowds - I've only been once and it was very exciting, even if I had no idea what was going on. I'm sure the MSA could learn something from them, although there's not much sweeping to be done between races! (At risk of alienating myself to everyone on this forum, is all the sweeping always necessary!?).

Last edited by graeme; 25 Jan 2004 at 09:44.
graeme is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 12:28 (Ref:849940)   #14
dogsbody
Racer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 208
dogsbody should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Cadwell Park ALWAYS forms its grids up in the assembly area and frequently does it with only two or three personnel (Dave has even been known to do it on his own!). Occasional problems occur if someone overtakes on the way to the startline but the crew there have a system of intercepting cars and re-aligning them as necessary. It works, its smooth, and it speeds things along.

BRSCC-N has been running timed races only at quite a few of its meetings for some two years or more now. These too tend to work. The real boon is on wet days when timetables often slip.
dogsbody is offline  
__________________
No Marshalling job too small.
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 13:43 (Ref:849986)   #15
goforit500
Veteran
 
goforit500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Lancashire, UK
Posts: 582
goforit500 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I'm all for pre-fromed grids, one out/green flag lap back to the grid, boards, lights, action !!

But I would also counsel that this could really do with being uniform across all club events as I have on several occasions asked a grid marshal whether there is a green flag lap or not and been surprised at the answer - As in "I'm not sure - watch the boards !!"
goforit500 is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 13:52 (Ref:849996)   #16
graeme
Veteran
 
graeme's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
United Kingdom
Macclesfield
Posts: 1,513
graeme should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Overtaking on the outlap? Kick 'em out or back of the grid! (Schumacher, Brit GP, c95)
graeme is offline  
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 14:41 (Ref:850011)   #17
Dave Brand
Veteran
 
Dave Brand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
England
Hadfield, Derbyshire (UK)
Posts: 6,358
Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!Dave Brand is going for a new lap record!
Quote:
Originally posted by pixie
We run 22, 10 laps races at Brands in a day,
....with a decent lunch break & still manage to finish early!
Dave Brand is offline  
__________________
Doing an important job doesn't make you an important person.
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 14:49 (Ref:850019)   #18
stroller
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 397
stroller should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
But I would also counsel that this could really do with being uniform across all club events as I have on several occasions asked a grid marshal whether there is a green flag lap or not and been surprised at the answer - As in "I'm not sure - watch the boards !!"

Unfortunately, until we can get all Championships to have some conformity, there will always be some differences.

ps - shouldn't this be covered in the final regs to competitors anyway

(to quote Don Truman - for the 5% who have read them anyway!! )
stroller is offline  
__________________
The last car through is a Rover - Over!!
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 16:15 (Ref:850063)   #19
Asp
Race Official
Veteran
 
Asp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
England
Cumbria, UK
Posts: 4,698
Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!Asp has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally posted by diz
On 'timed' races, the pit crews often can't work out laps to go for their pit boards, because there is a lack of conformity as to when the chequered will be shown. Some drivers rely on their pitboards. Admittedly a 'last lap board' is displayed for the drivers to see.
BUT sometimes the leaders [lapping at 1m04s] approach the line at say 13m50s and the last lap board is expected on the next lap, but it goes out early, So they only have that lap to go, when they should be expecting two laps to plan their late race challenges. Then at the next meeting, or race on the day -same scenario - the 'last lap board' doesn't go out. So on one occasion the race time ends up as 14m54s and the next time 15m58s
This is presumably why we're seeing more "X minutes + 1 lap" races - makes it very clear when the last lap is going to start, with most of the other advantages from timed races.
Asp is offline  
__________________
DDMC Rescue Crew, Post Chief & Flag Marshal
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 17:30 (Ref:850117)   #20
pixie
Racer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location:
Somewhere over the Rainbow
Posts: 200
pixie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Brandy
Quote:
with a decent lunch break & still manage to finish early
.......and we provide you with the Lunch pack ......... then deduct your money for finishing early

Last edited by pixie; 25 Jan 2004 at 17:32.
pixie is offline  
__________________
If you can't say something funny................say nothing
Quote
Old 25 Jan 2004, 17:36 (Ref:850121)   #21
diz
Veteran
 
diz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
England
Cheshire
Posts: 3,843
diz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally posted by Asp
This is presumably why we're seeing more "X minutes + 1 lap" races - makes it very clear when the last lap is going to start, with most of the other advantages from timed races.
It does depend on when the leader is approaching the line though. As I said earlier, if the 15 minutes time has elapsed and they show the last lap board the next time the leader crosses the line, that is fine. It is when the leader is due to cross the line at approx 14m 45s and sometimes they wait until the next lap, but sometimes it seems to be a case of "sod it, that's close enough, let's show the board now". I suppose this would be covered by conformity.
Yes, the green flag lap procedures will be in the Final Instructions. Unfortunately a lot of competitors think these are designed to stop their admission tickets getting creased.
diz is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2004, 00:25 (Ref:850456)   #22
paddock.one
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
England
Cumbria
Posts: 105
paddock.one should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
To return to BugEyed's original thread start: Who are the clubs - or circuits - who DON'T use the Assembly Area to put competitors into grid order? THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR!

(BugEyed's query about races being to time vs laps has been dealt with very well by others, so not getting into that...)

Have worked at a number of circuits over the last 15 years, and don't understand the question about Assembly. Eg at Oulton Park we display numbers (based on likely maximum grid size for the day) on the perimeter fence of the Assembly area at the beginning of the day, so competitors will become accustomed to the layout. When they arrive from the Paddock for practice, it's 'first come, first out' - park up in the numbered order. No arguments about 'I'm faster than him so I should go out ahead of him'. It works.

Competitors will then be more aware of the Assembly layout when they arive to be gridded-up for racing.

The Lydden 'dummy grid' IS an Assembly area - same thing.

If there are too many cars to fit in Assembly, we'll arrange, or cone-off, an adjacent area of the Paddock to use to form a queue to feed in.

Re quick turnarounds, we always call up the next practice session or race as soon as we have cleared the Assembly area of the previous one - sometimes even sooner. If a practice is shortened, or a race is declared finished after x distance/time, we hope to be ready to despatch the next...

Also, if a particular race is red-flagged twice, the Clerks may decide to take the competitors off the track, run their race - time permitting - at the end of the day, and move on to the next scheduled race. Not too much panic in Assembly if all our cars & drivers are present and ready...

Any overtaking on the parade lap should be dealt with by the Clerks - usually better than when Schumacher passed Damon Hill at the British GP!

As mentioned by another contributor, 750MC are good at keeping to time. Must also commend MGCC, who use a course car to lead cars from Assembly to the race grid every time. If there are marshals working on circuit between races, we brief drivers before they leave Assembly that the 'parade' lap will be slow - and why - so the snake to the grid will be well-behaved while there are hazards on track.

If another earlier contributor - a driver, I'm afraid - arrives on the grid not knowing which side of the track he's on... he doesn't know the circuit, therefore which side pole is, hasn't looked at his published grid sheet,
hasn't talked to any of his fellow-competitors, hasn't asked an Assembly marshal. He will be directed to the right grid slot by the Startline marshals anyway, but really doesn't deserve any sympathy.

Similarly drivers who don't know their Championship regulations, and/or haven't read their Final Instructions re green flag laps - some finally ask us, not having done their homework, but you wonder sometimes whether they deserve any extra help.

ALL SPECIALIST MARSHALS - PADDOCK / ASSEMBLY / PITS / PITLANE / STARTLINE / PARC FERME / RACE ADMIN / RACE COMMUNICATIONS / RADIOS / SHOULD BE AWARE THAT THERE IS A NEW MSA SPECIALISTS TRAINING PRESENTATION WHICH WILL BE USED AT SPECIALISTS TRAINING DAYS AT VARIOUS CIRCUITS NEXT MONTH - GET TO SEE IT.
paddock.one is offline  
__________________
paddock.one
25 years in orange, and still learning...
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2004, 06:49 (Ref:850648)   #23
G Tanner
Racer
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
England
Weston-super-Mare
Posts: 206
G Tanner should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
At Combe the grid is formed in the Assembly area and then brought out onto the grid as soon asit is safe to do so with the countdown starting pretty quickly afterwards.

With timed races you tend to find that this actually lengthens the day due to the fact that it is very inlikely that you will get the leader at the moment that the timed period ends so you then end up waiting possibly another lap before the chequer can be shown. It may be only a minute or so but across the meeting these all add up.
G Tanner is offline  
__________________
The Birthplace of Concorde. Welcome Home "Alpha-Foxtrot"
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2004, 11:17 (Ref:850876)   #24
goforit500
Veteran
 
goforit500's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location:
Lancashire, UK
Posts: 582
goforit500 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
"Similarly drivers who don't know their Championship regulations, and/or haven't read their Final Instructions re green flag laps - some finally ask us, not having done their homework, but you wonder sometimes whether they deserve any extra help."

Hmmmmmmm.....I am usually well aquainted with the final instructions and championship regs, however, confirming that your understanding is correct shouldn't be viewed or regarded as stupidity not deserving of the time of day !! I think this is especially important if the driver asking the question is on pole / front row :-)as they have a responsibility to the organisers and fellow competitors to get that bit of detail exactly right.....
goforit500 is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Jan 2004, 12:34 (Ref:850957)   #25
Sheila M
Veteran
 
Sheila M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
England
Burton-Upon-Trent
Posts: 2,578
Sheila M should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSheila M should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
When I did the Assembly Area (and Pit Lane) with two colleagues at Mallory for the plum pudding meeting, we lined up all the cars along one side of the assembly area until we ran out of room and then started on the other side. Different people have different ways of doing it but our way worked in that the cars left in the order they should have been on the grid i.e pole, 2nd, 3rd etc.

I do the same when I have to line up cars in the pit lane as well.

Most clubs follow the idea of the assembly area gridding up the cars which begs the question - what do the startline marshals do? In my day, cars were sent out to us on the grid in any order and we sorted them out. That being said there were a few more of us in those days!
Sheila M is offline  
__________________
You win some, lose some, wreck some - Dale Earnhardt
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
300mm fixed focal 2.8 or 70-300 2.8 jessspeed Motorsport Art & Photography 6 6 Jul 2005 20:08
Will it be fixed in time? Snapper Baz Marshals Forum 22 26 Apr 2004 18:31
Licensing F1 technology with fixed lead times Hugh Jarce Formula One 50 24 Oct 2002 17:21
Forming a new CART team... RickP:Clio51 ChampCar World Series 39 25 Sep 2002 07:53
fixed race snakepit27 NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 15 19 Jul 2001 02:50


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.