Where have they all come from? - Page 2

Samoan Attorney · 19 Jul 2008, 09:57 (Ref:2253799)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapper Baz

Looks like I now won't be at the WTCC meeting as a last minute change will see me on the coach with the BRSCC heading to Croix in France for that weekend. It's only a small 2-day clubbie but if it pays money then you can't turn it down-will prob help out with a little marshaling as well which is always fun there. So have fun at Brands everyone which I would guess will see its fair share of media signed-on! ...including Samoan !!!

Baz

say hello to my mate John Elwin when you are in France, Croix is his local circuit. He may be doing the report for AutoSprout or MSN.

I doubt that I will be at Brands...........I have a drive story at the end of next week that involves visiting all 9 BTCC circuits in three days, in a Monaro VXR. Then, as luck would have it, I have a day early in the following week at the Porsche Test Track in Leipzig, with 4 cars and Norbert Singer, then onto Spa 24 via Nurburgring. So no time for Brands Hatch, unless plans change again.

Jobs are like buses, nothing for months then several arrive at once.

Still these are paying gigs.

MikeHoyer · 19 Jul 2008, 10:18 (Ref:2253807)

A trip to Croix will probably be much less hassle than Brands! Wouldn't mind going there again...

Piglet · 19 Jul 2008, 13:29 (Ref:2253892)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

Guidoh

stop scaring the new boys..........

Actually they should listen to you as I can attest that each year the market shrinks as more and more folk give their work away. The latest financial disasters will only accelerate the process of lowering the prices.

There are two solutions..........run away or change the product mix.

Now now, we got told off by the new boys for being negative before, MM sent me a charming PM

I know you're all driving round in shiny new mercs and bentleys and living in large mansions with serving wenches to attend to your every need....you're just making out there's nothing in it to scare off the new boys because you want to keep ALL the money for yourselves....

I know your game - even that Hoyer bloke is at it, I've seen him at meetings with his feet up watching the cars go by whilst drawing his huuuuge salary!

Mike - I'll be at Brands so will prob see you there, I'll be in RA/RC.

MikeHoyer · 19 Jul 2008, 15:06 (Ref:2253931)

Ah, I won't be there either I'm afraid, I'll be at the Silverstone Classic. Now THAT'S worth going to (I hope). Are you going to the Spa 24?

By the way, where can I get one of these serving wenches?

Piglet · 19 Jul 2008, 15:13 (Ref:2253934)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

Ah, I won't be there either I'm afraid, I'll be at the Silverstone Classic. Now THAT'S worth going to (I hope). Are you going to the Spa 24?

By the way, where can I get one of these serving wenches?

Enjoy the Classic, it looks like it's going to be a great event. Nope, no Spa for us this year, not enough holiday left and not enough money

First year since 1999 I haven't been to Spa

Have a fab time and make sure you have a beer in the usual place for us!

Wench? Sorry I think it was a typo I meant wrench

Guidoh · 19 Jul 2008, 15:49 (Ref:2253946)

Not wanting to scare anyone away, that's the last thing I'd want to do.

I'm just hoping people don't get too excited about sports photography that they plough every ounce of effort, time, money, personal sacrifice etc into it for 5 years like I did only to get pretty disollusioned with the whole aspect when they discover no matter how much you work at it, sometimes you just won't earn a bean cos the control is in someone else's hand as to what you earn/can charge.

I wish I'd had someone like me who says it how it is when I first started out. It would have saved me thinking each year, well it's got to break next year, it must do, so I'll just keep going and keep going.

If someone with experience wants to shatter my illusions then I'm all ears, cos they normally don't give such up-front advice for no reason. They've learnt the hard way normally and it saves me having to go through the same hassle. "reinventing the wheel" and all that.

Doing things differently is easy, throwing more marketing at it is easy........if you have the time and bottomless pockets to support it.

I think I chose the wrong sport, cos all the punters and competitors liked what I did and saw it as different to what had come before, but the media seemed happy (or intent) on churning out the same old dross each week/month that you were on a hiding to nothing.

I'll help wherever I can but I certainly won't string anyone along and say "go for it" if I think they're unaware of the pitfalls along the way that I've already fallen down.

Happy shooting folks,

Guy

Piglet · 19 Jul 2008, 17:15 (Ref:2253984)

The trouble is Guy the young are arrogant (perhaps they should be?) and believe that they can do what no-one else can and regard any advice that doesn't fit their ideals as being "negative". There are many who believe that it's the "oldies" who can't make it work and that it will be different for them....

The occasional one will make it, Mike is a shining example of a mix of hard work and talent, however, Mike IIRC was always happy to talk to others and to take advice and to learn from those who already had a wardrobe full of tshirts! I also doubt that Mike is able to live a life of luxury on the money that he makes.

MikeHoyer · 19 Jul 2008, 18:12 (Ref:2254012)

Not exactly, but I can pay my bills, I live in a nice house, and about to my a new (ish) car, so I dont do too badly.

**bella** · 19 Jul 2008, 19:12 (Ref:2254039)

you know why the young are arrogant? schools teach them they can do anything and everything and they can be what they want to be. newsflash, kids, it doesn't work like that! you can only do it if you're good at it!

anyway... don't brag mike, your boss might read it and decide he doesn't work you hard enough and pays you too much

MikeHoyer · 19 Jul 2008, 19:30 (Ref:2254054)

Doesn't work me enough? Haha, that'll be the day!

minimangler · 19 Jul 2008, 22:44 (Ref:2254151)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bella

you know why the young are arrogant? schools teach them they can do anything and everything and they can be what they want to be. newsflash, kids, it doesn't work like that! you can only do it if you're good at it!

anyway... don't brag mike, your boss might read it and decide he doesn't work you hard enough and pays you too much

All school taught me was how to get by by doing no work

I try not to be too arrogant...

Tim the Grey · 20 Jul 2008, 00:11 (Ref:2254178)

Mike, I already said, I don't want your job!

Jake, I seem to recall helping the funding of your obsession...

To both of you, I wish you well.

Me, I just want to take pictures without the bloody poxy ******* fence in the way!

You know, I can recall Graham Hill's last race win, at Silverstone in what, 1972ish? Not a bit of fencing anywhere...

Samoan Attorney · 20 Jul 2008, 10:20 (Ref:2254378)

Vincent Laforet has some very interesting things to say on this and related topics at

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014

Read all of it if you are an aspiring photographer.

minimangler · 20 Jul 2008, 11:24 (Ref:2254398)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

Vincent Laforet has some very interesting things to say on this and related topics at

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2014

Read all of it if you are an aspiring photographer.

Thanks for the link. That fish-eye shot is awesome!

Piglet · 20 Jul 2008, 13:04 (Ref:2254524)

That's an interesting article SA and that is coming from the US where there is an industry much bigger than that in the UK to start with.

**Snapper Baz** · 20 Jul 2008, 14:14 (Ref:2254555)

I looked at some of the "iffy" gear that some people had at Brands but then thought to myself that when I started (and did my early stuff for Autosport/MN) I didn't have much in the way of decent gear but I produced the goods so I can't really complain about that though I would like to see what they do actually produce sometimes! At Croix I'll be doing the race reports as well-often do that there-just hope there's some excitement in France during the meeting as I'll guess Brands WTCC will be hard to beat action wise!!

mustang_ford · 20 Jul 2008, 15:34 (Ref:2254613)

an interesting thread..

couple of points

1) Piglet - correct me if I'm wrong but arent you a Marshall? Do you not work for free just to get near the track and be part of the racing?

2) How does someone get into motorsport photography if they dont start working for free? You cant get a job without experience and you cant get experience without a job. The only way someone can get the experience is to offer to work for free. It would be impossible for someone with no experience to contact teams/mags/drivers and say 'I want you to pay me $x.xx, but I have no experience'.

From where I'm sitting it seems to me that a lot of these new guys are good competition for the paid regulars. I've been doing it a while, I get paid, I'm certainly not a kid, but when the 'kids' ask me for advice I give them encouragement as well as letting them know the reality of the situation. Believe it or not the kids arent quite as stupid or arrogant as you might think. (although the one that decided to stand in front of me at Brands last week wasnt the smartest cookie

)

IMHO motorsport photography will go exactly the same way as the sport we shoot. The beginners will only get a break if they have money/luck/support , and if they have the talent the cream will rise to the top and they will get some income from it.
Seems to me that some of the establishment are just a bit nervous that some of the kids might actually be a bit better than they are... food for thought.

Piglet · 20 Jul 2008, 16:23 (Ref:2254647)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang_ford

an interesting thread..

couple of points

1) Piglet - correct me if I'm wrong but arent you a Marshall? Do you not work for free just to get near the track and be part of the racing?

Ohh Mr Mustang what a provocative first post - been a long time lurker or re-registered just for the occasion, I imagine the Mod's can tell?

Yep you got me bang to rights, I'm a Marshal (I prefer one L) well actually I'm a Licenced Official, and you've got me, I flog my ass off for 12 hours on both Saturday and Sunday having usually driven for 3 hours plus to get to a circuit (and 3 hours back again on a Sunday night), plus I give up five days plus a year holiday from my real job to run Friday meetings and I do all that, just to get near the track.....of course, I don't actuallyget near the track as I work inside most of the time (better for my hair you know!) but yeah you've got me I'm just there for a freebie, it's a great deal I do really well out of it

I'm really impressed with your knowledge....I'll leave the others to deal with the photography side of things of which I also know nothing really, no experience of it at all

mustang_ford · 20 Jul 2008, 16:38 (Ref:2254653)

long time lurker (soon to be going back to the lurking again)

i'm guessing you do actually enjoy what you do, though? I certainly wasnt implying you were there for a freebie - quite the opposite in fact.

Piglet · 20 Jul 2008, 16:43 (Ref:2254657)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang_ford

long time lurker (soon to be going back to the lurking again)

i'm guessing you do actually enjoy what you do, though?

Oh right I believe you

I love what I do, I wouldn't do it otherwise, it has cost me a small fortune over the years but I do it for the buzz I get out of doing a job well, working with a fantastic team of people and what I do allows competitors to go racing.

mustang_ford · 20 Jul 2008, 16:52 (Ref:2254659)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

Oh right I believe you

I love what I do, I wouldn't do it otherwise, it has cost me a small fortune over the years but I do it for the buzz I get out of doing a job well, working with a fantastic team of people and what I do allows competitors to go racing.

and thats pretty much what most photographers want too.
in a perfect world, though everyone would get paid including the Marshals (but thats for another day)

Piglet · 20 Jul 2008, 17:17 (Ref:2254674)

Sorry, I don't see the similarity? Could you explain?

Actually you'll find most marshals DON'T want to be paid, they do what they do because they love it and they love giving. No club would pay me what I earn in my day job and most marshal's are resistant to the job being a "minimum wage" job, pay peanuts, get monkeys. The skill that is given by marshals' weekend in and out is something that no club could afford to pay for.

Samoan Attorney · 21 Jul 2008, 06:57 (Ref:2255053)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mustang_ford

an interesting thread..

couple of points

1) Piglet - correct me if I'm wrong but arent you a Marshall? Do you not work for free just to get near the track and be part of the racing?

2) How does someone get into motorsport photography if they dont start working for free? You cant get a job without experience and you cant get experience without a job. The only way someone can get the experience is to offer to work for free. It would be impossible for someone with no experience to contact teams/mags/drivers and say 'I want you to pay me $x.xx, but I have no experience'.

From where I'm sitting it seems to me that a lot of these new guys are good competition for the paid regulars. I've been doing it a while, I get paid, I'm certainly not a kid, but when the 'kids' ask me for advice I give them encouragement as well as letting them know the reality of the situation. Believe it or not the kids arent quite as stupid or arrogant as you might think. (although the one that decided to stand in front of me at Brands last week wasnt the smartest cookie

)

IMHO motorsport photography will go exactly the same way as the sport we shoot. The beginners will only get a break if they have money/luck/support , and if they have the talent the cream will rise to the top and they will get some income from it.
Seems to me that some of the establishment are just a bit nervous that some of the kids might actually be a bit better than they are... food for thought.

What confused logic to compare marshals and photographers.........

Marshals are volunteers who are essential to racing.....no marshals, no racing.......simple really.

As to aspiring or established photographers, well they are not essential to racing, also very simple.

The original post for this thread was a comment from someone who does get paid for his efforts wondering where had all the folk with passes come from (and what were they doing with the fruits of their labour?) at a high profile British GT race..........and why were they not seen at a more humble (?) club meeting? I don't think the poster was worried about competition, from what I see at the circuits he should not be concerned

It was a good question and the debate it provoked has covered old ground.

I would guess that most of those referred to were fans with passes who somehow had convinced someone that they had need of accreditation.

Motorsport photography is a popular hobby and the proliferation of debris fences must frustrate the hell out of most folk who then try and circumvent the obstruction. Getting a pass is the most obvious way round the issue.

The simple truth is that even now it is almost impossible to make a proper living out of photographing motorsport and that this situation will get worse in the future. This is also true of most other forms of photography, the digital age has changed the marketplace and how photographers do business.

The motorsport market is in reality quite small and there are many aspirants to fill the needs, so prices are driven down to the point where they become zero.

Of course this truth does not fit with the dreams of some who post here, well tough, it's the real world.

Advances in technology will continue and I predict that within 10 years photos will be grabs from video or whatever it is called then. At that point trackside access will disappear for those who are not part of the TV rights organisation.

So basing a career plan around soon to be redundant roles is not to be recommended.

Society changes and we change with it.........who wants to be a candlestick maker or even a tobacconist these days?

And picking on marshals is really dumb....they complain more than photographers..........ask any circuit owner.

Piglet · 21 Jul 2008, 08:47 (Ref:2255112)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

What confused logic to compare marshals and photographers.........

Marshals are volunteers who are essential to racing.....no marshals, no racing.......simple really.

As to aspiring or established photographers, well they are not essential to racing, also very simple.

The same thought had me chuckling the shower this morning, I've not yet been at a race meeting where the MSA Steward has refused to allow racing to start because the media were not in place in sufficient numbers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

And picking on marshals is really dumb....they complain more than photographers..........ask any circuit owner.

Me winge and moan? What a dreadful thing to say...you've been talking to my husband again! I once left a job and the partner I worked for said "she's been a joy to work with, I've never heard her complain once", to which the rest of the team fell about, I'm not sure he was clear who I was!

Looks like Mr Mustang has gone back to lurking or to his more usual log on. What a shame....

My view on Marshals/photogs....marshals at race meetings are virtually 100% volunteers, there are no full time, professional marshals at race meetings that I am doing out of a paid job by my working for free. Most of the Clubs have full time employees but they would not class themselves as Marshals and the ratio of full timers in the organisation I'm involved with is something like 3:25 on a race weekend and that's just within the ranks of the senior officials, you'd then add between 50-150 other volunteer marshals into the equation depending on the level of the meeting. They wouldn't have more paid employees if they didn't have marshals, there would be no motor racing as the margins are such that they could not pay staff.

The point that entry level motorsport photog's don't get is that; with the new age of digi cameras where even I can shoot something half good for web use with my Nikon Coolpixs; there will always be someone giving away work to get their foot on the ladder, today's newbie may well shimmy up the greasy pole but what they'll find is that there will be a new layer of newbies underneath them giving their work away so why would a team/driver/advertiser want to buy work when they can get something acceptable for free?

Those that haven't read the article SA linked to would be very wise to print it off and read it, it's pretty wordy but there is a hell of a lot of sense in it.

Finally, SA you talk about 10 years before photo's will be screen grabs, have you seen the quality of the stills taken from F1 on-board cameras that they show on the ITV-F1 website? I'd revise your estimate down a bit...for web use they are pretty good now.

MikeHoyer · 21 Jul 2008, 12:04 (Ref:2255243)

I don't think the circuits themselves help in this situation, most ask for proof of previously published work when applying, I know I've never submitted anything when sending in an application. Perhaps it's a case of "all media interest is good interest". Perhaps if they were more selective in who was granted a pass, it might help in some small way.