Where have they all come from? - Page 3

Piglet · 21 Jul 2008, 12:58 (Ref:2255280)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeHoyer

I don't think the circuits themselves help in this situation, most ask for proof of previously published work when applying, I know I've never submitted anything when sending in an application. Perhaps it's a case of "all media interest is good interest". Perhaps if they were more selective in who was granted a pass, it might help in some small way.

I think that's a good point, with contacts it not too difficult to get accreditation and some of the circuits are not very good at patrolling this.

I think there is a view that I have tended to share that media interest is good as is all publicity and even amateur posting pics on a site like 10/10's might help to get someone through the door and/or generate income that may assist teams/drivers in obtaining sponsorship. I can't entirely decide whether this logic is flawed or not?

I thought the discussion in the article that SA linked to was good on this subject, that currently an organisation that allows a media free for all has no control over the way it is represented - that's potentially quite risky plus we know that a vast number of photog's have no knowledge about the issues of commercial rights and little understanding of what they can and can't do with the images that they take. Some circuits (Mallory) have solved this by restricting access, perhaps we'll see more of this? I think MSV circuits are getting increasingly picky about who they sign on.

minimangler · 22 Jul 2008, 16:55 (Ref:2256013)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

I think that's a good point, with contacts it not too difficult to get accreditation and some of the circuits are not very good at patrolling this.

I think there is a view that I have tended to share that media interest is good as is all publicity and even amateur posting pics on a site like 10/10's might help to get someone through the door and/or generate income that may assist teams/drivers in obtaining sponsorship. I can't entirely decide whether this logic is flawed or not?

I thought the discussion in the article that SA linked to was good on this subject, that currently an organisation that allows a media free for all has no control over the way it is represented - that's potentially quite risky plus we know that a vast number of photog's have no knowledge about the issues of commercial rights and little understanding of what they can and can't do with the images that they take. Some circuits (Mallory) have solved this by restricting access, perhaps we'll see more of this? I think MSV circuits are getting increasingly picky about who they sign on.

No offence Piglet, but every thread like this that you post on ends with you going off on one about how young, amateur, looking-for-a-break togs like me are a waste of space and dangerous. How is a young tog going to get in the game if you have to have previously published work? What do you have against aspiring photographers?

And of course it is not flawed logic to self publicise on siteslike this, or Flickr, to try and get ahead. It's how I've got my first break. How else do I make my break as someone starting from scratch with no contacts, looking to make a break on my (hopefully) talents alone?

Paddockman · 22 Jul 2008, 18:25 (Ref:2256063)

I tell you what, this same old argument is about all that ever gets talked about in detail on here.

I say split the whole Ten Tenths Photograpy section into pro and non pro!

Some pretty big ego's in this thread.

Piglet · 22 Jul 2008, 18:33 (Ref:2256069)

Quote:

Originally Posted by minimangler

No offence Piglet, but every thread like this that you post on ends with you going off on one about how young, amateur, looking-for-a-break togs like me are a waste of space and dangerous. How is a young tog going to get in the game if you have to have previously published work? What do you have against aspiring photographers?

And of course it is not flawed logic to self publicise on siteslike this, or Flickr, to try and get ahead. It's how I've got my first break. How else do I make my break as someone starting from scratch with no contacts, looking to make a break on my (hopefully) talents alone?

MM you should try reading the post...and the article that SA referred to you rather than just looking at the pictures...

My reference to flawed logic and publication was with reference to circuits accrediting all comers perhaps on the basis that all publicity is good publicity. It comes from Mike's post where he raises that at many circuits no checks are made on whether a snapper has been published and maybe they don't care as long as they (the rights holders) are getting exposure.

It also comes out of the article where it is discussed at length that rights holders are wanting to have more control over how they are perceived and how they are represented in the media.

It's an issue about commercial rights and the value of those rights and how increasingly rights holders will hold those rights close to their chests.

It's not all about you, and I don't recall "going off on one", I also recall making the point that many aspiring photog's don't understand the problems within the industry. You demonstrate my point nicely.

El_Gibleto · 22 Jul 2008, 20:39 (Ref:2256156)

Going back a few years the Silverstone press officer, Corinna Phillips, had a very good method of dealing with applications from new photographers. She'd allow them a pass for a few clubbies and if they acted 'appropriately' and were starting t get work published she would issue passes for the larger meetings (Bf3/BTCC) etc.

Her method seemed to work as it weeded out the people who wanted to go straight to f1 without effectively 'serving an apprenticeship', it also allowed the photographer the chance to learn and practice their skills.

Unfortunately there has been a high turnover of circuit press officers the last couple of years, perhaps following Corinna's practice might be a good idea.

I'm sure others here may have other ideas on how we deal with this problem.

**Snapper Baz** · 22 Jul 2008, 21:46 (Ref:2256200)

El' thats a good point-proof of published work after a meeting or two would be good idea possibly but there could be drawbacks for and against...it's not always as straight forward as it looks. I was asked by the editor of a English BMW mag ( he has since moved to another publishing company still with car mags) to cover the Britcar a few years ago (virbal and via email)...I then covered 90% of the rounds. I phoned a number of times and he assured me each time that the stuff would soon be published and that I should carry on doing the rounds but space was a problem. Guess what...he used stuff from the 1st round and never did anymore from the year...and then the company refused to pay for my time and travel...and then he told the comapny after he left that he never asked me to cover the damn stuff...thanks Mr. *#*#*son!! So, promissing a press officer that you are doing work for a magazine can sometimes backfire so beware all! Can we also calm down on here by the way as things are begining to get a little heated with some-thanks all.

MikeHoyer · 22 Jul 2008, 22:50 (Ref:2256240)

It's a good idea in theory though.
I "served my apprenticeship" going to lots of winter tests in horrible conditions, with not much appearing. Without a press pass too, it took a lot of effort before it was decided I was important enough to have one. Then a year or two of club racing, before I started getting passes for "decent" races.

It's like a lot of decent jobs. You want it that badly, you need to spend some money and make a lot of effort to get there.

Tim the Grey · 22 Jul 2008, 22:50 (Ref:2256242)

Not her, Mr.Baz, sir.

I repeat, I just want to get clear of that bloody by damn fence!

Though I have to say, Le Mans Classic at 3AM was a LONELY place. Where was everyone?

Right, Apocalypse Now just started on the TV. Time to leave.

JurekB · 22 Jul 2008, 23:35 (Ref:2256260)

Silverstone have now stopped issuing accreditation for club meetings meaning you now have to apply directly to the club. I can't quite fathom the thinking on this unless it's simply a case that so few people apply for accreditation to club meetings that they simply can't be bothered and are passing the buck to the organising club. It strikes me as odd because surely the circuit should have a greater interest in who is trackside then the club?

MikeHoyer · 22 Jul 2008, 23:39 (Ref:2256262)

Why? The club pay a fee to the track to hire it. So long as they get that, why should they care? Silverstone has enough publicity with it's major events, if no-one turns up for a 750MC or BRSCC clubbie it's no skin off their nose.

JurekB · 23 Jul 2008, 09:42 (Ref:2256421)

Yeah, I guess you're right although I was thinking more about the safety angle but I suppose a lot of that is on the clubs shoulders as well and it's ultimately up to them if there is an incident.

robert2000 · 23 Jul 2008, 14:51 (Ref:2256639)

Although I'd love to be able to jump in front of the fences, I know that until I have the skills and the equipment then I have absolutely no right to be there.

I'm more than happy searching out the best places at clubby meetings - you can still get decent shots from the spectator areas. If someone in the future decided that they wanted me to do some work for them that involved getting a media pass then that would be fantastic, but first and foremost it's a hobby and my motivation is the satisfaction from getting a good shot. I know that getting in front of the fences is not automatically going to get me a better shot, so I'm not actively trying to seek access. If it happens, it happens, but I'm just happy to be able to learn whilst simultaneously watching my favourite sport

I would have liked to have taken photos at the summer sprint at Debden, but on the website it said no spectators. Should I contact the organising club for future events?

**Snapper Baz** · 23 Jul 2008, 16:06 (Ref:2256676)

Yeah, contact the club but they will probably ask who you will be supplying stuff to. Maybe contact a local paper first and ask if they would be interested in anything from that meeting or on local drivers in the future and go from there. You may also tell the club that you would be happy to let them have pictures from the event in return for you being there to take the picture-try it.

**Snapper Baz** · 23 Jul 2008, 16:07 (Ref:2256680)

PS: I often covered the Sprints at North Weald (which are still on) but that was for "Ingear Magazine" which sadly went bust....possibly because of too many meetings like that covered ha!

PDS · 23 Jul 2008, 23:25 (Ref:2256885)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapper Baz

Yeah, contact the club but they will probably ask who you will be supplying stuff to. Maybe contact a local paper first and ask if they would be interested in anything from that meeting or on local drivers in the future and go from there.

One word of warning re-Club events... some will insist on you having the required PLI, because they will not have taken out the relevant coverage themselves!

El_Gibleto · 24 Jul 2008, 05:03 (Ref:2256955)

Peter,

you will find that some circuits insist on a significant amount of PLI before allowing media to sign-on for test days, MSV ask for £5m, Knockhill asks for a similar amount of cover for both test and race days.

There are several other sports when proof of PLI is required, including League Football and premiership rugby. Surely anyone who is seriously trying to work professionallly would have PLI, which is not very expensive, for their own protection.

If the circuits were to ensure that all requests for accreditation were supported by a authorising document for a legitimate media outlet with verifiable circulation/readership figures it would go a long way to solving the problem. Any reputable publication with have audited circulation figures and an 'ABC' for paid titiles or 'VFD' certificate for free publications that confirms the audited circulation for that publication, there is a similar scheme for websites.

PDS · 24 Jul 2008, 09:57 (Ref:2257081)

Yes, I am aware of that... ‘Been There, Done that!’ Or should I say ‘Doing That!’

I just made that comment to all these aspiring new photographers who are thinking of taking Snapper Baz's suggestions..

Like most jobs, you have a better chance if you serve an apprenticeship. Whatever form that may take.

I did it, and I get paid for my work

minimangler · 24 Jul 2008, 14:08 (Ref:2257207)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piglet

MM you should try reading the post...and the article that SA referred to you rather than just looking at the pictures...

My reference to flawed logic and publication was with reference to circuits accrediting all comers perhaps on the basis that all publicity is good publicity. It comes from Mike's post where he raises that at many circuits no checks are made on whether a snapper has been published and maybe they don't care as long as they (the rights holders) are getting exposure.

It also comes out of the article where it is discussed at length that rights holders are wanting to have more control over how they are perceived and how they are represented in the media.

It's an issue about commercial rights and the value of those rights and how increasingly rights holders will hold those rights close to their chests.

It's not all about you, and I don't recall "going off on one", I also recall making the point that many aspiring photog's don't understand the problems within the industry. You demonstrate my point nicely.

You think I don't know the problems? That as a media student at university I've somehow managed to avoid the "credit crunch", "recession" or whatever you want to call it, and how that is going to affect the whole industry?

Get your facts straight before you start ruining more threads with this negative bull that gets typed to often in these threads.

And yes, I agree it is a good idea to get to club events and the like, and I admit I've personally neglected that angle so far. I think I'm gonna spend some of the winter at Silverstone on test days in the cold. Who knows, I might enjoy it

David L · 24 Jul 2008, 19:24 (Ref:2257339)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

Though I have to say, Le Mans Classic at 3AM was a LONELY place. Where was everyone?

At home, asleep...

minimangler · 26 Jul 2008, 00:23 (Ref:2257998)

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L

At home, asleep...

Amen to that!

kdr · 27 Jul 2008, 14:36 (Ref:2258532)

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey
Though I have to say, Le Mans Classic at 3AM was a LONELY place. Where was everyone?

Quote:

Originally Posted by David L

At home, asleep...

SA could probably attest to the fact that Le Mans proper on Weds and Thurs night qualifying can also be a lonely place, which makes the crowds at the weekend even stranger!

Guidoh · 28 Jul 2008, 20:44 (Ref:2259231)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samoan Attorney

As to aspiring or established photographers, well they are not essential to racing, also very simple.

Can't quite agree with that sentiment Samoan,

The snappers & TV crews feed the media wheel that in turn markets the various sports to the public, but far more importantly to the sponsors, who in return for media exposure, plough millions into the sport.....

Without that exposure you have no sponsors, and without sponsors you have no racing........FACT

The media professionals are a VERY important part of the whole equation.

minimangler · 29 Jul 2008, 13:53 (Ref:2259631)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guidoh

Can't quite agree with that sentiment Samoan,

The snappers & TV crews feed the media wheel that in turn markets the various sports to the public, but far more importantly to the sponsors, who in return for media exposure, plough millions into the sport.....

Without that exposure you have no sponsors, and without sponsors you have no racing........FACT

The media professionals are a VERY important part of the whole equation.

I'll second that notion. Sponsors are indirectly paying for photographers.