Can somebody explain the HSCC Guards Trophy?

[John Turner]

Excellent ramble, John.

I've been contemplating wading in here but have expressed my views about the Guards Trophy before. As a more than interested spectator I'd not want to see the departure of the Invitation cars unless entry levels are so high that two decent grids can be sustained for both 'types'. As Morningents says, and I've mentioned this before in another thread, the Guards Trophy was much more about sports racers than GTs, historically, so what do we mean by Guards cars? It's surely the cut off date rather than the cars that bugs some, but historic racing doesn't (and doesn't have to) adhere to the original cut off points.

As for the new 2 -litre series, I'm rather excited about this, and even had a bit of minor input. I will start a thread about it soon, but John, I urge you passionately to hold onto 'Chocolate Drop' as it is absolutely the sort of car that the new series is made for.

[Robert Farrell]

Originally Posted by john ruston

A lot will be dependant on regs.
HSCC,Is it a Orwell free for all or real cars.
Do 210's have those Richardson ally engines,Whenever were they used in period.They are not welcome in CER from now.
Driving standards are being sorted in CER but this new idea of the transgressor paying half rebuild costs of the bashed are unenforceable.
Correct brakes and stuff.
The cars are quick enough without that development word.
We will do the HSCC series with B8,B26 and Mr Birchs GT160 if the regs are correct.If not we take toys and do CER.
HSCC is ,with Peter Auto, our preferred race series organiser .CER gives us options with 50/60's Sports GT jobs.
With Pre War vanishing that is no longer a reason to do any meeting.Legends cannot get any results correct in our bit so give up with them.
eeds another thread as we are going off topic.Leave Guards as it is.

Two Points John. We need a race for prewar cars WITHOUT HTPs. There are quite a lot of prewar specials about without a hope in hell of getting approval from the VSCC or anyone else. I`ve got just such a vehicle and the only place to race it is with the 750MC or BDC allcomers.
Secondly. "Real Cars". Recently encountered a 1966 Corvette on Six and four Pot Willwoods all round. The Willwood Brake Company was formed in 1977 !!!. "It Beats Cockfighting" as they say in Cumberland.

[john ruston]

Legends Pre War do not need HTP's .There is Alvis special racing in Algarve this weekend.
Problem is that it easier to fill grid for SM and Woodcote.

[John Turner]

Posts regarding the new HSCC new 2-litre series have been moved to a new thread, here:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125178

[simon drabble]

I would like to pick up on a comment made about the B8's. They were brought in to boost the grids in Guards as an invitation class (as they still are).
I cannot understand why a B8 driver would not be lobbying to be included into the new series as a proper class. It must be like an adult playing with kids in Guards for them.
Power difference aside just compare the size of rear tyre to 23b's etc!!
I know for a fact every B8 that moved would be replaced by a GT or pre 66 sports racer that currently does not come out due to the B8's.

[Nick Fleming]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I cannot understand why a B8 driver would not be lobbying to be included into the new series as a proper class. It must be like an adult playing with kids in Guards for them.
Power difference aside just compare the size of rear tyre to 23b's etc!!
I know for a fact every B8 that moved would be replaced by a GT or pre 66 sports racer that currently does not come out due to the B8's.

I know this is getting a little off topic but I have to jump in here. There are two issues here. One, I dont think there are enough B8's and other GT's to make a seperate race altogether. If you look at the entries over the year to HSCC Guards then you will see a lot of B8's but few who attend every meeting. Secondly, I don't consider the B8's to be racing the other cars so the analogy of an adult playing with kids is misleading. The effect of the slower cars is to make the front runners have more to deal with creating closer racing. If you look at the Gold Cup the front runners got into position and stayed there barring a swap of the front two due to pit stops. If you look at all the other combined races then the front runners have been affected by yellow flags and traffic allowing others to pounce. Silverstone is a good example. With a clear track I have no doubt I would have held off Michael. As it happened I had to stay behind two much slower cars during a yellow sector and as a result the two B8's behind me got a run on me as we came onto the green. Next lap round they get boxed in on the straight and I pass them both. Makes for outstanding racing and as long as everyone gives each other the space and respect they deserve then you have a great days racing.

There is one other fairly critical point for me. I want to drive in a class with the best drivers with the most challenges. Making a specific race for GT's wont improve the quality of the drivers who attend, but you remove the challenge of traffic from the other cars. So why would I vote for that?

But this is a biased GT view. Having raced a Lotus Elite for a few years I know what it's like to be the slower car getting lapped by some vastly faster car. I can completely understand the argument for removing the GT's when you're not in that class. But I had to explain why I don't 'lobby' for a class specifically for B8's etc.

Cheers

[simon drabble]

Nick dont get me wrong I really like B8's (although there is a feeling amongst competitors that some B8 drivers consider the rest of us moving obstacles that get in the way!) but the fact remains Guards is a series for pre 66 cars and B8's etc are invitees as they are post 66 so they are never going to achieve anything other than have the glory of beating some MGB's and twin cam sports racers.

If I had a B8 I would want to comepte with B19's etc to see if I could punch above my weight....

[Nick Fleming]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Simon, your views on the Guards Trophy are, of course, well known, but I will copy your post over to the two relevant threads.

John...better do mine as well then!

I must add my thanks for all the race reports and photos over the year. A very fine effort indeed sir!

[John Turner]

Simon, I have copied this post to the new 2 - litre series thread as well, but there are separate issues, I think, to deal with on both threads.

The discussion regarding the B6/8s (G16s and Lenham spyders too) started long before the new series was announced, so setting that aside for the moment (I'll comment separately on that issue on the other thread), I think therefore the question is if the grids are to be split, can you also guarantee sufficient cars from the Invitation class to form a grid? Ideally, you want about 30 cars for each race. Secondly, if you are to split them, you are going to need double headers, since for single day meetings the only way to have two separate races would be to sacrifice another race. Finally, of course, if you dispense with the invitation cars, that gives carte blanche to say the Shipman/Hales Crossle to rock up to the Guards Trophy races and walk away pretty much unopposed, since it is as quick as the the B8s, so you'd still have the speed differential without the excitement of the close racing at the front that we witnessed at the Finals. I'm sure that Simon Hadfield once told me that a well prepared and well driven Elva Mk 7 or 8 would also be as quick as a B8, so although I'm not suggesting that it would actually happen, you could conceivably get a Crossle/Elva dust up at the front at pretty much the same speed as the current B8 pace.

Now, it is entirely possible that with the increase in HSCC double headers, splitting the grids is entirely possible, but it is clearly going to be dependent on getting sufficient entries for both grids to make that happen. So partly down to you guys, I reckon.

[simon drabble]

well the Crossle (when run as a twin cam) is not a slam dunken - dont forget that Elva's and Crossles when run with BMW engines are a different class. I think my argument only holds up if the B8's etc move to the new series. If they do not then they should stay in Guards

[Nick Fleming]

Completely understand what your saying Simon. But I really want to race the driver and not the car. Beating a B19 would just mean the driver was not the best. Beating another B8 driven like it was stolen is what gives me the buzz. If I didn't have the B8 and had an MG I would still consider the Guards as I think there are great drivers througout the field and I just want to pitch myself against someone who's a demon behind the wheel.

Anyway...maybe we should save this for next year over a drink. I know some fine whisky...

[simon drabble]

Nick I respect your stance as you are a quick driver - Guards is a great series and as I said my idea only has legs if B8's went to the new series not a stand alone race.

Sadly I wont share you whisky but happy to chew the fat over a monte cristo!!

[John Turner]

Originally Posted by Simon Drabble

well the Crossle (when run as a twin cam) is not a slam dunken - dont forget that Elva's and Crossles when run with BMW engines are a different class. I think my argument only holds up if the B8's etc move to the new series. If they do not then they should stay in Guards

Maybe a different class but still pre 66 and therefore still able to run presumably. I don't think anyone is opposed in principle to splitting the grids, Simon, as long as the numbers stack up and race time is available.

[Nick Fleming]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Sadly I wont share you whisky but happy to chew the fat over a monte cristo!!

Sounds good to me Simon. Thanks.

[John Turner]

Another point. If we are going for pre 66 Guards Trophy cars, would you be happy to accept Group 7 (effectively big CanAm cars) on the grids? As you will note from earlier posts on here, they would have every entitlement, historically, to be there if that was the basis on which the series was based. The issue with any form of historic racing is that you can't cater for very short periods; there would never be enough entries if you were to restrict the new 2 -litre series, for example, to the 1970-72 period, anymore that you can easily tie down a period for the Guards series. It's just a good name, with historic resonance to bring to the series.

[simon drabble]

I am all in favour for allowing any car that has entered Guards upto and inc 1965. Bring the McLaren M1's on.... only in 65 spec though.....

[john ruston]

Leave Guards alone.It works!
Many series don't.
How low can they make the B8's.Seen Hovercraft with more ground clearance.

[Robert Farrell]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Another point. If we are going for pre 66 Guards Trophy cars, would you be happy to accept Group 7 (effectively big CanAm cars) on the grids? As you will note from earlier posts on here, they would have every entitlement, historically, to be there if that was the basis on which the series was based. The issue with any form of historic racing is that you can't cater for very short periods; there would never be enough entries if you were to restrict the new 2 -litre series, for example, to the 1970-72 period, anymore that you can easily tie down a period for the Guards series. It's just a good name, with historic resonance to bring to the series.

Thought this makes interesting reading. 1965 Brands Guards Trophyhttp://www.racingsportscars.com/cove...965-08-30e.jpg

[simon drabble]

Robert - what a grid!

[one-two]

As ever, Ruston has hit the nail on the head. I know the combined grid is not to absolutely everyone's taste, but there are enough of us that like it to make it work. For what it's worth, I say that as one of the slower cars. Robert

[morninggents]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

Robert - what a grid!

Presumably all the Lola T70s were spyders?

[John Turner]

Yes, Peter, they'd have to be in 65.

[Robert Farrell]

I wonder how many of the cars shown in the 1965 Brands Hatch Guards round are still extant and if the dream of a truly representative Guards Sports racing car grid could be a reality.

[Chris Sharples]

Robert,
I don't know but I believe this was the grid.
Nice isn't it?
Chris

[Robert Farrell]

Thanks Chris.
You can`t help but smile.
RF