F1 Will Be The Loser

[Casper]

F1 has become a spec class formula as I think most will acknowledge. With LMP1 doing stuff like this http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...ith-ben-bowlby I know where my primary interest has moved to. I am sure a lot of people have decided to same thing as well.

[steve_r]

bye then

[Casper]

Originally Posted by steve_r

bye then

That is the reaction I expected. Exactly where did I say I was leaving or losing all interest in F1? I said my predominent interest was going to shift because another class had become to me more interesting. I also intended for it to illustrate why that was so compared to F1 and why others will take the same course. Being precious about F1 will not fix things.

[Tucky]

IMO there's been more variation and better racing in 2014 than there has the last few years. Sure we'd all love a bit more engineering freedom, but too much and the cars would probably have so much downforce that they'd be absolutely glued to the ground and there would never be a single overtake. It's a balancing act but I'm pretty happy with what we've got right now.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Tucky

IMO there's been more variation and better racing in 2014 than there has the last few years. Sure we'd all love a bit more engineering freedom, but too much and the cars would probably have so much downforce that they'd be absolutely glued to the ground and there would never be a single overtake. It's a balancing act but I'm pretty happy with what we've got right now.

Technically F1 is boring for me. If they freed up the rules and allowed some innovation a lot of people would regain interest. We have discussed this here many times before and the debate has become the same as the racing, boring, as the changes needed never vary. I just posted this as an example of why interest in other forms of racing will grow and F1 has reached a point of stagnation which is sad. I think the mechanical side of innovation can be allowed separate from aero which is an easy fix, ban wings, limit under car aero etc. We had the top engineer pull back from involvement this year due to what could be termed boredom with the whole thing.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Casper

That is the reaction I expected. Exactly where did I say I was leaving or losing all interest in F1? I said my predominent interest was going to shift because another class had become to me more interesting. I also intended for it to illustrate why that was so compared to F1 and why others will take the same course. Being precious about F1 will not fix things.

Really? You expected anything other than people basically saying go, have fun? You post wanting everyone's pity for your plight that F1 is boring and then when no one comes to rally around your brilliance and nominate you for FIA/FOM supreme leadership you somehow are surprised?? Sorry it's not your party and not everyone has to agree with you or even care. It's exactly like the high school girl posting how bored/sad she is hoping everyone will say 'Sorry, what's wrong?"

[Casper]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Really? You expected anything other than people basically saying go, have fun? You post wanting everyone's pity for your plight that F1 is boring and then when no one comes to rally around your brilliance and nominate you for FIA/FOM supreme leadership you somehow are surprised?? Sorry it's not your party and not everyone has to agree with you or even care. It's exactly like the high school girl posting how bored/sad she is hoping everyone will say 'Sorry, what's wrong?"

Cry......

Again just the sort of response I would expect when that is the exact opposite from what I was saying. Comprehension not a subject you studied at school? You also must have a limited view of motor sport. My views don't suit you? Tough.

[broadrun96]

Sorry, but I'm pretty good at reading exactly what you SAID and you wanted everyone to pat you on the back for being so smart. Did you add anything other than a link? Did you list out actual REAL areas of rules change? Eliminating wings is NEVER happening so drop the idea. Mandating a cross section is areas and working with teams to develop and funnel the air coming off the cars, yes and has been started with the DRS but with a different basis for design. Creating a discussion and debate actually involves proposing a few ideas and starting points for responses rather than just saying I'm going home cause this is no fun.

As for Newey moving on, I suggest you crawl out of your stupidity and read what he has actually said multiple times. It's a completely new challenge and something he has desired to do for years. Now that the wing sail AC62s are the weapon of choice it has drawn Adrian in even more and he has attended multiple trials and observed the boats with Ellison in the past.

[sweetchuk]

No, the biggest loser is the ability to have proper conversation without it degrading into embarrassingly childish rants.

Does nearly every thread have to degrade to these levels at some point in the thread's life? How about a bit of respect for people's opinions before engaging into a war of thinly veiled vitriole & rebuttal, in predictable attempts to make it personal.

This is not directed purely at the OP or subsequent commentators in this thread - but everyone who sees fit to do it.

It's just pathetic, sorry, but it is.

[crooky]

As I've just written in the other thread...

I think F1 is a better sport with it's close racing and the short sprint race format complimenting this. But I think if you're a car fan who's interested in the bits underneath the bonnet then the WEC will generally win you over in the end.

There's just so much variety and technical interest in the WEC that just to talk about the cars themselves is really interesting as of course we do in this forum.

Whereas in F1 the only real interest for me on a technical level next year is how well the new Honda will perform and will Mercedes in regards to engine performance be caught in any way. More of the interest in F1 I'd say is about the drivers and how they compare to their teammates.

I'll continue to watch both and enjoy them for their respective qualities. But let's just say a few years ago I'd be going to the see the F1 live but now I go to see the WEC instead.

[hondafan37]

I agree with you Casper, I like the technical variety and the F1 has not this.
In LMP1 you have: (In 2014)
Toyota TS040, V8 3.7 + 6 MJ Electric Motor
Porsche 919, V4 2.0 Turbo + 6MJ Electric Motor
Audi R18 TDI V6 4.0 Turbo Diesel + 2MJ Electric Motor
In 2015 you will have the upgrade of this cars and the new revolutionary Nissan LMP1 GTR. Formula 1 does not give you this.

The same thread discussion is in Sportscar & GT Racing section
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143573

[crooky]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I agree with you Casper, I like the technical variety and the F1 has not this.
In LMP1 you have: (In 2014)
Toyota TS040, V8 3.7 + 6 MJ Electric Motor
Porsche 919, V4 2.0 Turbo + 6MJ Electric Motor
Audi R18 TDI V6 4.0 Turbo Diesel + 2MJ Electric Motor
In 2015 you will have the upgrade of this cars and the new revolutionary Nissan LMP1 GTR. Formula 1 does not give you this.

The same thread discussion is in Sportscar & GT Racing section
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143573

Also the different methods of storing the electrical energy for those three cars.

[tux]

F1 is slowly dieing, before the end of the season Force India will be out of buisness, Sauber & Lotus? who knows.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by crooky

Also the different methods of storing the electrical energy for those three cars.

yes of course, you have reason I forget this.

[Richard C]

I think the way the OP has gone about this, the message is not going to be well received in this forum, but I sympathize. I have been a fan of both F1 and prototype racing for a few decades. I have always viewed F1 as the pinnacle of racing, but at the same time also understanding that the two are generally apples and oranges.

Both series are cyclical. Right now prototype racing is on the rise. It is doing a number of things right. It might be entering a new golden era? Can it maintain this? Time will tell. F1 however is doing a number of things wrong. Valid arguments can be made that it is in a period of decline. A constant topic of discussion here is about just how broken it is.

Is prototype racing better than F1? It's a matter of personal opinion and always will be. I will continue to follow both closely. I will likely be traveling to Texas for "one" major race this year. I am pretty sure that will be the WEC and not the F1 event as I am just more excited about WEC right now than I am for F1 (even if I am excited about the 2015 season for both series).

Richard

[Mekola]

Just to argue: The most recognizable, popular and winner motorsport car of 1971 season was not a Formula 1 one, but the Porsche 917 of the World Sportscar Championship then...

[GT6]

I am and probably always will be a sportscar racing fan but i also follow F1, at this moment in time the WEC is doing well whilst F1 is having a few problems, however the format of F1 will always be better suited to TV so both formats will survive, just because you prefer one does not mean you can not enjoy the other IMHO

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 has become a spec class formula as I think most will acknowledge.

That's not true and most will not acknowledge it. I have been hearing this non-sense mostly from NASCAR and WEC fans. WEC fans mainly say that F1 is spec racing is simply to put down F1 and assert some kind of superiority of LMP1. On the other hand, some NASCAR fans make such statement mostly to elevate their own sport ("what's wrong with spec? even F1 is spec"). Both couldn't be more wrong of course.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by JacobP

That's not true and most will not acknowledge it. I have been hearing this non-sense mostly from NASCAR and WEC fans. WEC fans mainly say that F1 is spec racing is simply to put down F1 and assert some kind of superiority of LMP1. On the other hand, some NASCAR fans make such statement mostly to elevate their own sport ("what's wrong with spec? even F1 is spec"). Both couldn't be more wrong of course.

What did that well known engineer say about it? Something along the lines of no opportunity for creative thinking and he withdrew from major participation and went sailing. Could a front engined F1 be built or a six wheeled F1 be built or any other configuration that does not fit in thinking of F1? Why is creative thinking banned when that is exactly what F1 was built on. People forget all the innovative ideas that preceded this era of closed mind thinking, Lotus and sliding skirts, fan cars etc were the backbone of what got us here today. Yes, it is a spec class for all intents and purposes with the only free areas being suspension and aero (to some degree). If anyone shows a bit of initiative they all go crying to the F1 god whoever he is and get it banned. And they wonder why F1 has sunk to the low it has.

[Pontlieue]

Originally Posted by JacobP

That's not true and most will not acknowledge it. I have been hearing this non-sense mostly from NASCAR and WEC fans. WEC fans mainly say that F1 is spec racing is simply to put down F1 and assert some kind of superiority of LMP1. On the other hand, some NASCAR fans make such statement mostly to elevate their own sport ("what's wrong with spec? even F1 is spec"). Both couldn't be more wrong of course.

The word spec-class is used wrong when describing Formula 1, but the criticism still stands. Compare the just revealed Formula 1 cars with the new LMP1 cars. LMP1 offers visibly more room for creativity. Formula 1 is basically about how good you can execute the concept stipulated by the rules, with creativity reduced to finding clever workarounds to avoid some of the strict rules, which leads to innovations swiftly being banned.

[Alfaholic]

Originally Posted by Casper

F1 has become a spec class formula as I think most will acknowledge. With LMP1 doing stuff like this http://www.racer.com/wec-le-mans/ite...ith-ben-bowlby I know where my primary interest has moved to. I am sure a lot of people have decided to same thing as well.

To me "spec" means you are given a set of parts built to a certain specification which you must use, whereas in F1 a set of specifications are given to which parts must be built so it is not a "Spec class formula".

However I do prefer the WEC idea of giving a performance window to meet and it's up to you what you build to get there.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

To me "spec" means you are given a set of parts built to a certain specification which you must use, whereas in F1 a set of specifications are given to which parts must be built so it is not a "Spec class formula".

However I do prefer the WEC idea of giving a performance window to meet and it's up to you what you build to get there.

I would call FV a spec class but it operates on competitors supplying their own components. Most if not all of sprint karting is spec class racing as well. it is a class specified so tightly that no innovative out of the box thinking generally happens. I suppose different views but the end result is much the same thing. I don't suppose there is a tried and true definition that applies to motor sport so we all use our own interpretation of it and I do understand your POV.

[JacobP]

Originally Posted by Casper

What did that well known engineer say about it? Something along the lines of no opportunity for creative thinking and he withdrew from major participation and went sailing. Could a front engined F1 be built or a six wheeled F1 be built or any other configuration that does not fit in thinking of F1? Why is creative thinking banned when that is exactly what F1 was built on. People forget all the innovative ideas that preceded this era of closed mind thinking, Lotus and sliding skirts, fan cars etc were the backbone of what got us here today. Yes, it is a spec class for all intents and purposes with the only free areas being suspension and aero (to some degree). If anyone shows a bit of initiative they all go crying to the F1 god whoever he is and get it banned. And they wonder why F1 has sunk to the low it has.

A whole lot of time, the creative ideas that were shot down were real perversions on what the open wheel car should be. While the six wheel or fan cars of the 80s looked interesting because they were so unique and radical, those were truly perversions on open wheel genre, and rightfully shot down. I also saw a bitter article showing some crazy sketches by Red Bull, and which was complaining how F1 regulations were killing those great ideas. However, those sketches again were nothing like an open wheel car IMO, with wheels being closed as well as the cockpit. If Andy Newey feels like the regulations are not allowing him to be truly creative, he can probably still just joint some other discipline.

F1 is not a spec class. As you admit, aero, suspensions, and engines can be pretty different. How can this possibly be a spec series? You, WEC zealots, should stop making far fetched statements like that, because they do look ridiculous. If you want cars that bend and twist all the rules and also need the organizers to bend over to provide special waivers and exceptions, then you can watch WEC. I understand that WEC and some other series have already made a rule that if you have more than two wheels, you can probably race. F1 has more solid regulations.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by JacobP

While the six wheel or fan cars of the 80s looked interesting because they were so unique and radical, those were truly perversions on open wheel genre, and rightfully shot down.

But surely the biggest perversion of all is wings. They belong on aeroplanes, not cars.

F1 is still the pinnacle, the class that presses my buttons. Sports prototypes are technically very interesting but I find it odd to build a pure racing car and then throw in silly rules to try to pretend that it's something you could use on the road. That's as artificial (perhaps more so than the artificiality that has appeared in F1 in recent years). Nascar is just execrable.

I personally think that F1 rulemakers have lost their way in a number of areas. Of course things need to be reined in to prevent lap times being slashed to near nothing. But the rule restrictions become layer upon layer of detail, instead of broad-brush "you can do this, you can't do that" which would allow some innovation and imagination. On engines, I would allow a certain amount of fuel for the race and no other restrictions. I would ban wings completely and introduce something to stop cars generating ground-effect downforce. Then of course, you would need the safety rules.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Sports prototypes are technically very interesting but I find it odd to build a pure racing car and then throw in silly rules to try to pretend that it's something you could use on the road.

Erm, no, not the case at all. No-one is pretending you can use a R18 or a TS040 on the road - the rules don't pretend that either. But the technology they're using - yes, almost certainly that will be used in due course of time.