1600cc 16v Stock Hatch

[RoyG]

Just received a bulletin from BRDA including -

"Preliminary discussions regarding the possibility of allowing 1600cc 16v cars into Stock Hatch are taking place with the BRDA Drivers' Group. Drivers with a view on this should talk to Stock Hatch class representative Kirk Twyman."

Look like a brilliant way of making 150 or so cars instantly uncompetitive if this is adopted!

Kirk's Email address is KTW001@aol.com. Get talking!!

Roy

[Mr Atspeed JR]

Maybe It Would Be Better For The Brda To Try And Keep The Stock Hatch Drivers They Have Already Got Instead Of Making New Formulas!

[chris cake]

These regs will not come in to 2006 if it happens. By then most 205's will be dead! and most of the current crop of more modern cars can run 16v's . please tell me if i'am incorrect.

[silver bullet]

Originally Posted by chris cake

These regs will not come in to 2006 if it happens.

If this is the case then its a good idea, trying to find a 1600 now thats not 16v is getting harder. Doing this along with making modifieds more attractive for stock hatch drivers to move into can only be a good thing. But getting it sorted and letting us know what is happening as soon as possible is very important so we can plan ahead.

[Carlos]

YES YES YES YES YES PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!
16V cars would allow alot more variation into stockhatch

[Pug620]

Hi

But at what price ?

what cars could be used ?

Saxo VTS expensive
106 Gti expensive

Opening it up to 2 litre would allow a lot more budget cars

Then either make a 2 litre class or weight the cars so equal perfomance

Cheers

Marty

[Spectator]

Whatever is done must surely be phased in over a period of time so as to allow drivers the opportunity to transfer over to whatever is decided.
In the interim period introduce weight penalties to equate the perfomance differentials and be seen to ensure that these are adhered to by rigorous scutineering.

[BertMk2]

I think allowing the 16 valvers in is a good idea but there does need to be some performance equalising (added weight or whatever) at least for the initial period. As Spectator rightly says this needs to be handled carefully to ensure that you don't render the current field obselete in one hit.

[sihorton]

I have to admit that i don't like the idea of 1600cc 16v, i would much rather see the original size kept, with the addition of a 2ltr stockhatch class introduced in between regular stockhatch and supermodified.

You still have to think aswell that the 205gti still makes up about 85% of the current stockhatch field. Must people don't have the time or the money to go replacing there cars.

All that is needed is a class in between stock and supermod's to close the gap.

si

[Roundy Mooney]

Sounds like it might be in reaction to the RSS bringing out it's DIV 2A rules to me.

Having said that it is clear that it is something that will have to be planned for as most manufactures now only do 1.6 16v the pool of cars out there will become increasingly smaller with time.

So planning now to phase 16v cars into the class would probably be the sensible thing to do. Instead of the tried and tested Irish method of doing things. Which involves treating drivers like mushrooms (keeping them in the dark and feeding them S*H*ITE). Until about a week before the new season starts when all is revealed!!!

Personally a 2.0 litre stock hatch class would be my preferred route to give people a progressive step up the ladder in terms of performance. Without the massive increase in budget needed at the moment for modified. You could run the cars in modified next year as cars were built then as figures increased separate into it’s own class

[Matti Alamaki]

Realistically this is the only way forward for the stock hatch class and as Roundy said it's good that they're phasing it in rather than just been told a week before the first Rallycross.

The only problem I would see with this class is some peculiar Jap import Mitsi Colts and Civics. Some oddball Jap cars could wipe the whole field. They will have to regulate the types of cars allowed, just like homolagation specials aren't allowed at present such as the 106 Rallye.

There are plenty of cars you could pick up cheap in the 1.6 16v category...

[golfvanman]

[/QUOTE]All that is needed is a class in between stock and supermod's to close the gap[QUOTE]

correct me if im wrong but you all ask about a class between stockhatch and supermodified is that what modified class is now ? aka Gary dixon and Paul buckmaster ? ok its not a cheap class but how expensive is it to be at the front of the stockhatch class ? if you start looking for an ex-rally car to fit the bill and modify to suit surely on a reasonable budget its possible.

I had a decision to make last year the golf was getting to old and needed to be retired gracefully ! either spend some money (my bank manager still wants it back though) take the plunge and move up to supermodified or take up playing darts, after all this is a british championship we are discussing and still a relatively cheap one at that

[richorton]

Lets face it guys how many of you can afford to go out and buy a 16v motor and run it for the year.I mean if it goes wrong your into big money for things ie engines arent cheap nor are pannels or bumpers.At lest with the old peugeots,novas,citreons there cheap to run and theres still plenty about.I think we would see a lot of drivers who are on a low budget start to drop out because the 16v stuff will start to run away and the old peugeots will struggle like hell to keep the pace and it will take the enjoyment out of racing.think stock hatch should be left to stock hatch cause at the moment theres a lot of close racing between us

[PhilChicken]

Why don't we run three sub-classes? With seperate throphies etc.
After all it may attract more entries and more exotic machenery.
That way the old machenery can still get out there and mix it with its own class and as they slowly die the death people can move up.

Stock hatch 8v up to 1.6
Stock hatch multi-v up to 1.6
Stock hatch Multi-v up to 2.0

At the start the 8valves will be in abundance and they will gradually be replaced as people move up a class within a class.

[leonidas]

What is needed above all is a common framework of classes, allowing older cars to race for something while not holding back newer models. Rules needs to be agreed across organising bodies and be at least vaguely in sympathy with what's going on in Europe. We don't need a CART/IRL situation here...

I don't see why there can't be seperate sub classes, each with their own final if need be. Could have maybe...?

Div 2 - European
Div 2A- RSS / 16v 1.6

'Domestic' Div 3 - stock hatch 2.0
'Domestic' Div 3a - stock hatch current regs

You could always run 'em together when entries are poor - or run the more powerful cars behind the others. Didn't they used to do this in the early 80s when 4wd first came in? Makes for more overtaking if nothing else...

[chris cake]

Originally Posted by hawkesfire

Hi

But at what price ?

what cars could be used ?

Saxo VTS expensive
106 Gti expensive

Opening it up to 2 litre would allow a lot more budget cars

Then either make a 2 litre class or weight the cars so equal perfomance

Cheers

Marty

Going 16v will not be any more expensive than what we have now . To be at the front current 8v engines cost who knows what ? As for being expensive
have you looked what you can get for £1500 ? After all extras , eg cage ,seat, belts which you will already have ,the cost is not so great.
After all modern cars will come like or not .
If you current drivers what to be equal to the rest of the classes its no good staying in the dark ages iam sorry to say . Its as simple as that BTRDA=old cars , BRITISH CHAMPS = modern .Sorry if i have upset any of you CHRIS....

[Carlos]

The sub classes sounds a great idea. I am currently looking at building a new car, it would be great to think I could build a 1.6 16v car, race it for a season then throw a 2ltre lump in move up sub classes race another season, add an lsd, dog box and race in a simplified modifieds class and all in the same car. this would allow me to split the costs over several seasons on developing the car and make the transition between classes allot easier.
But I am probably getting to carried away. lets start by having 16v cars, a deffinate step forward for the sport IMHO.
p.s
Why not open it up to saloons and coupes while your at it. wouldnt seem to cause any problems and opens up the posabilities even further.

[sihorton]

i think we need to get kirk on here to listen to all the views.

si

www.hortonracing.co.uk

[Carlos]

See one of your cars is for sale Si
What you thinking building?
Had a few ideas already just wondering what your thoughts where
16v and 8v options

[sihorton]

Was going to keep it fairly quiet, but i am part way through building a new little 1.4 16v racer. But realistically if these rule changes go through it will mean that my new car will already be redundent (which is something i don't want to happen). There is no way that it would keep pace with any front running 1.6 16v's, but i could defo play with the 1.6 8v's.

si

[mr_atspeed]

Oh dear...here I go again!!!! AS my son has said, why dont the BRDA stabalise the formulas they have, try to keep the drivers they have (and dont ignore them in the paddock), look and hear whats said, take all the info onboard, then make good decisions on ALL the info made available to them.
As has been mentioned, sooner or later we will have to go over to 16valve, but for the moment, lets keep the thing as it is.
There has been talk of more varities of cars to use, but, in all multi formula series, there is always a dominant car, pug 205 in rallycross, Suzuki swift in the old Falken tyres series, golf in others, cossies in the touring cars years ago, minis in rallycross in formula D, then fiestas.
there is also cost. Has anyone priced the cost of sixteen valves, a Williams clio we did (Ians favourite car to work on), the average rrp for each valve was i think about 15 pound!!! now multiply by 16.
Dont alter things yet..be patient..a couple of years on, we could change..but now, with the way things are, circuits...new people running things...lack of entries..we need to stabalise things..get the drivers back...get the fun back, like wildtracks, not the best circuit, but win or lose, we all had fun.
The other thing we need to do, is get the word supercar away from the bloke who had written in motorsport news, and give a good writeup on dave ward's brilliant drive against the supercar, a joy to watch...shame the super car bashed dave off line to get past!!
This might get drivers looking, good drivers go where the competition is, if they read that Mr.***** is racing rallycross, then they have a look, like it and turn up with a car and race against him, then they bring others in, and so it goes on..and on..
Your turn with the soapbox Mr g.

[Matti Alamaki]

Are you not all missing the point? The Brda said they would phase it in, nobody needs to start panicing yet. We need to look ahead and not behind, 16 valve is the forward. Anything for more Gee, Gee's!

[RoyG]

Cheers Mr A -

Here we go....

Before any more new classes are even thought about, a long, hard look needs to be taken at the serious decline in numbers in the classes that already exist. People have been voting with their feet - in the general direction of out!

The original Stock Hatch concept brought new competitors flooding into Rallycross, rescuing Rallycross from probable oblivion. But weaknesses in the areas of eligibility and driving standards, as well as constantly rising costs, have resulted in an almost equally spectacular decline.

Total numbers at Championship meetings have remained pretty even, but only due to high numbers of Junior competitors. Costs in this category too have rocketed, with Junior cars changing hands for well over £5k.

There must be well in excess of 150 Stock Hatch cars in existence, most of which have spent most of the last couple of years tucked up in a garage somewhere. How about making a real effort to tempt these back onto the circuits, rather than allowing 16v 1600 cars in, thereby ensuring the old cars (totally outclassed!) stay in mothballs.

PLEASE - keep (or rather restore) Stock Hatch as the budget class, affordable and attractive to those competitors who are more interested in good, level playing field competition, rather than an engineering exercise or a measure of the size of certain people's cheque books.

The regulations already exist to enable this to happen - IF THEY ARE APPLIED. Proper scrutineering, proper penalties for cr*p driving, proper steps to "equalise the performance of cars".

Also ensure that everyone can expect to race in a final and get their money's worth.

Finally (getting back on my familiar soapbox!) pay particular attention to ensuring that the grass-roots are encouraged. Attractive Clubmans' events, with maximum track time for minimum expense, are essential if the long-term future of the sport is to be ensured.

Here endeth the lesson.

Roy.

[silver bullet]

Bringing in 1600 16v will have to happen sooner or later & given plenty of warning will be succesful but I dont think we need to go to 2.0 in stock hatch just yet. If the modified rules are altered slightly that would be enough. If you try to bring too many classes or sub divisions it would dilute things down too much, it has been tried before who can remember when the modifieds were split (up to 1400, 1400-1650, 1650-2150 & over 2150).:confused:
The class structure seems fine as it is stock hatch, modified, super modified & supercar.

[Mr Atspeed JR]

and where are all the drivers gonna come from to run in these "sub formulas"?? 3 years ago this 16v idea would have worked because there was enough drivers! now there are only enough drivers to make up a half decent stock hatch field! has there actually been a BRDA C final this year??