terrifying Hillclimb - Bergrennen

[Darth Vader]

You are right chunder. It is very confusing.
It starts all Back in the 80s when Group N and Group A Touring Cars were established by the FIA. These are still the main Touring Car Classes in the European Championship. But, what to do with the old cars of Group 1 - 4, old Rallye Cars and so on? The FIA hab no answer. And the amount of cars which could probably be used in Hillclimbs growth more and more. Group N and Group A Cars which were no longer homologated. Group B, DTM, Super Touring Cars...
So every Nation created its one class for all those cars. In the core it is the same in every country. But in detail its different in every Country.
In Luxembourg its Group ACL
In Germany german Group H
In Austria austrian Group H
In Switzerland its Group Interswiss
In France they call it Group F
But it went even more confusing when FIA discovered the problem. They created E1-Touring Cars. E1 ist much more liberal as Group H. But the nations did not adopt the new rules, they kept their own. To allow E1-Cars to start they created new classes. In Germany this is called Freestyle.
There is also a movement in the other direction. Some people don't wanted to spent so much money as is necessary to get competitive in Group H. So Group CBC (Classic Berg Cup) was born which is more restricted then Group H. To become more confusing some of the Top-Drivers do sometimes switch between the groups. In some times times it is so confusing that even the officials and drivers don't know exactly what they do.

If you are still with we, I go to the championships. The main championship over Europe is the European Championship. It is divided in two divisions. Divison I for Touring Cars: Group A; N; SP; S2000 and GT.
Division II for Racing Cars: Group CN and Group E2(F3000,F3 ...)
The European Challenge takes place with the same rules but on Tracks which are not so traditinonal and more in eastern Europe. Then we have European Hillclimb Cup. This is the series the FIA created for their E1-Touring Cars. It is split in two conferences.
On the national level there are national championships in
Germany,Belgium,Luxembourg,Switzerland,Austria,France,Spain,Portugal,Italy,Czech Republic,Slovakia,Slovenia,Croatia...
The Champions drive nearly alway F3000 or CN-Prototypes. But the Quality of the Championships is very different. In Belgium there is one F3000 and one CN. In Germany there are 4-7 CN and no F3000. In France they got 10 F3000 and 10 CN.
In Germany for example the Championship is split. So we have a German Champion for Racing Cars and for Touring Cars. Then there is the German Trophy which is not for the TopCars. So we have German Trophy Champion for Racing Cars (F2 or C3 Prototypes) and for Touring Cars (Group H). Then there are cups within the championship which run mostly the same events as the German championship. SBC(for sportscars), Berg Cup(for Group H) and CBC(for Group CBC) So there a lot of champions each year.
In austria austrian championship has only few races in austria. They often go to Czech Republic or Slovakia. But they have another series in the Steiermark which is called Bergrallye-Cup. It is only for TouringCars similar to Group H. The Tracks are much shorter and smaller then on normal hillclimbs. Back to the 80s they drove on gravel, too. But today no more.

The drivers you mentioned:
We have Peter Naumann. (The yellow Polo) He started in 1300cc Group H Berg-Cup. But his Polo is no longer with us. It was destroyed last vear.
Holger Hovemann.(The yellow Kadett) Group H Berg-Cup 2000cc. He ist the fastest driver in the Group H. Often faster then the cars over 2000cc.
Bruno Ianniello: He drives a Lancia Delta S4 Group B. He doesn't drive a championship and starts where he wants.
Andreas Gabat: Ford Escort Cosworth - Austrian Championship
Felix Pailer: Lancia Delta Integrale - Bergrally-Cup (He is called Mister Bergrally) Austrian Championship as well.
Reto Meisel: Ex-DTM-Mercedes 190E (now with Judd V8-Power) German Championship
There are other drivers on Porsche 911, BMW-Judd 320, DTM-Opel-Astra;DTM-Audi-TT;ITC-Alfa Romeo 155V6TI, Ferrari 575GTC, Ferrari 360Modena, Lancia Delta Integrale, BMW M3 V8; Porsche 935,Porsche 911 GT2, Mitsubishi Lancer or Ford RS200.


I think I could give you some information. Asked detailed questions if you want to know more. As you see it is very complex.

[chunder]

Hehe, great reply Darth!! Very helpful

I think I am a little more aware of whats going on now

The guys I am watching a lot of are Gabat, Pailler and some mroe from Austria. There is a guy running a chopped down yellow Intergrale, orange Gabat Escort,, black Sierra 2wd, couple of GT2 911

I have found some great stuff from Kitzeck?? Is this in Poland??

Guy in green 3 series, awesome revs!

Thanks for the help

Would be great to get over there nd see a few races one day, the scenery is amazing as well as the cars.

[Darth Vader]

This are all Drivers from the Austrian Bergrallye-Cup. They've got a good homepage: http://www.bergrallye.at
As I said, all the Races of the Bergrallye-Cup are in Steiermark/Austria and so is Sausal-Kitzeck too.
Under "Fahrerlager" you can find a complete list of all participants with a picture of their car. Some of the Top Drivers have own homepages which are linked there. Under http://www.pailix.at/media/unfall you can see a very spectacular Clip of Felix Pailers horrible crash some years ago.
The green-yellow Porsche 911 is a Turbo and no GT2.
Herbert Pregartner drives a GT2, but he does not regularly start in the Bergrally-Cup. To find more good videos of this scene look at http://www.hillclimbfans.com

It is a shame that the european and the british hillclimb scene are splitted so much. There are often italian drivers in Austria or Germans in Switzerland or French in Luxembourg or or or. But never goes one from continental Europe to the British Isles or vice versa. For your Topdrivers it would be impossible to come to Europe because their cars are banned here. But I really would like to see what someone like Lionel Regal could do in Shelsley Walsh.

[chunder]

I see what you mean

I am not really that interested in the UK hillclimb series to be brutally honest.

I can appreciate the skills involved and the precision, but it's all a bit quick and instant for me.

The Berg races are obviously much faster and on longer tracks, with such beautiful scenery.

I also love the cars some of the championships use.

Managed to find the Austrian site myself after the last post, it is very good, unlike the berg cup one which is useless I'm afraid.

For me I would love to see Ianello, Pailler and Plasa at Goodwood to show all the nonces there how to drive up a hill, just like Millen did a few years ago.

I know a lof the cars are priceless but I can not stand watching some old gimmer mince past in a 917 or something on tickover! For goodness sake, drive the damn thing!

[Darth Vader]

The British and the European scene is very very different. It seems there is almost no really good touring or sports car in Britain. But what you have is a lot of single seaters. And not only top cars. There are a lot of old cars or cars with little engines too. Thats hardly to find in Europe.
In Europe the Tracks are faster - in Britain the cars are faster. To see Martin Groves or Graeme Wight Jr. In St.Ursanne for example would be astonishing but also very dangerous.

You are right, the Berg-Cup site is ****. But they do not accept critic in Germany if you give it to them. They mean they are the best and you must be thankful that the site even exists. We have to live with it.

Goodwood is one of my favourite events. The track is a little short and not really a hillclimb. And the amount of prominent people disturbs the racing. But where can you see such a range of cars competing against each other? For sure, a real competition is difficult to find cause you never know if the driver is a professional or not and if he is going to drive fast or to make a good show.
But the coverage of the event over here is more than a disappointment. Mostly there is nothing shown on TV. And if so there are only interviews with the promis and no racing to see.
I remember only the race when Nick Heidfeld in the McLaren-Mercedes won. Does his track record still stand? I would love to get more information about this race. Videos or Fotos or the results of the last 10 years for example. Do you know where I can find this?

[chunder]

Goodwood is not really a proper competitive event to be honest. It is more a collection of very valuable cars going upa hill!

For the last few years, despite the level of machinery there, oten the quickest car is a touring car like Nissan Primera or an older Group C car.

But yes Heidfelds record still stands, though a few years back Kovalainen had a punt at it, but couldnt crack it.

It is on this weekend actually, if you type goodwood festival in any engine you will get some good stuff.

Then, later in the year there is the Revival meeting on the old race circuit, this is a proper race meeting but for only older mainly pre-60's cars. Lotus Cortina, Coopers etc.

[Woolley]

That's quite an interesting and accurate appraisal. I suspect that it's really two different sports both named Hillclimbing. The British model began as a way of showing off car's ability to get up a short, steep hill, often loaded with passengers, gradually evolving through specialist vehicles to today's speed events. I don't know much about the evolution of continental climbs, but I'd hazard a guess that it's more based in the rally style. Gentler gradients over longer distances to cope with the mountain passes prevalent in the mountain ranges and then opening the classes up to whatever kinds of circuit or rally vehicles are available?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Woolley

That's quite an interesting and accurate appraisal. I suspect that it's really two different sports both named Hillclimbing. The British model began as a way of showing off car's ability to get up a short, steep hill, often loaded with passengers, gradually evolving through specialist vehicles to today's speed events. I don't know much about the evolution of continental climbs, but I'd hazard a guess that it's more based in the rally style. Gentler gradients over longer distances to cope with the mountain passes prevalent in the mountain ranges and then opening the classes up to whatever kinds of circuit or rally vehicles are available?

Most of the early hillclimbs in Britain were on Public Roads - the only place that now happens in the UK are in Ireland, the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. A quick read of Uphill Racers by Chris Mason will soon dispel the idea that these were Reliabilty Trials although that is where the "British model" evolved from prior to the First World War.

As for Goodwood, I doubt that the venue could be made acceptable so that it could hold a round of the British Hillclimb Championship due to the safety implications of competitive running rather than demonstrations that currently take place. I keep checking the dates as I would love to go but thankfully there is always something more competitive to go & see!

[Woolley]

I'd actually meant to be replying to Darth Vader's post, but left it while I did something else and then came back and posted without checking if anyone else had got inbetween, sorry.

Saying that, I don't disagree about Goodwood which couldn't interest me less. Allegedly Heidfield's record doesn't stand because someone familiar to hillclimb fans may have gone quicker on a run which wasn't officially timed. However, I think we're wandering from the point so I won't pursue it - I'm sure there's a thread on the subject somewhere.

[Flymo]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

But never goes one from continental Europe to the British Isles or vice versa.

Err excuse me. There is one driver from England and one from Guernsey who regularly run in the French hillclimb championship with some success.

[b1ackcr0w]

Oh yeah that's right Dunc, The Harratts have been over and picked up a few pots

[chunder]

I think our friend was tlaking about regulars really

And I do not think many drivers have been over to Austria or Germany to compete in Berg events.

Probably because most of our cars would perhaps not be eligible?

Be great to get some o them over here though on a decent length course

Some of teh courses in Austria are pretty narrow and twisty, not unlike some of the bigger UK tracks like Harewood perhaps.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by chunder

Some of teh courses in Austria are pretty narrow and twisty, not unlike some of the bigger UK tracks like Harewood perhaps.

I think that the continental drivers would think most of the British Hillclimb courses were the tyre warming areas!

The only one in Britain that was of suitable length was the 5 Kilometre hill they used at Lerghy Frissel - a wonderful course and one of the fastest.

[chunder]

Lol Steve I think you are right

I ahve to admit I have only been to Gurston here and Harewood so I cant really comment.

Maybe the tracks in Ireland might be comparable, and certainly the guy in the Mk2 Escort there would be a crowd pleaser!!

Is it true by the way that Graeme and a few others were really quick at Goodwood and this is possibly why they have never been back!!

Can you imagine how spectacular Ianello, Gabat, Pailer and maybe Seiler and Plaza would be up there

And the stupid thing is it would be more of a show than a load of overpaid numpties sitting with the brakes on and the engine on its turned down limiter for 5 minutes!!

[Darth Vader]

Yes, I thought about regulars and Topdrivers.

The lenght of the track is not the biggest problem I think. In Europe there are also tracks under 2 km. But the races are on public roads - thats the difference. The races in England are in private parks and the roads so are very very small. If the people in Europe see videos of Gurston Down, Loton Park or especially Doune they are always shocked that you can drive with this cars on this "field-pathes".

[Darth Vader]

I forgot about Goodwood. I think we should not critisize Goodwood to much. The main sense of Goodwood is to have stars, proms and legendary cars. The Hillclimb is only a side product. Furtermore I believe there were 3 fatalities in the British Hillclimb Championship since its creation was back in the fifties. Goodwood exists since 1993 and had equaled this a couple of years later. So I think there was some pressure to do something.

I searched Goodwood Festival as you told me and I found fotos and videos but there seems to be no site where I can get full results of the hillclimb of the past years?

I found out that Heidfeld still has the record with 40s. McNish did 41s in a Toyota F1. I think then it was decided not to time F1 cars anymore. So some say Kovalainen in the Renault broke the record, but it was not officialy timed.

But it seems that there is still a competitive hillclimb. This year there was a fight between Anthony Reid in a Williams-Cosworth FW07 and Justin Law in a Jaguar XJR8/9. Both realized 44s and Law won the race. So F1-Cars are still allowed to compete. Only the current cars with the current drivers seem to be banned from the competition.

[Woolley]

Goodwood is not really a comparison. It's a car/celebrity show rather than a competitive hillclimb. F1 cars go, but it's all burn outs and showboating. The serious accident that claimed two lives and seriously injured another is probably more of a symptom of this as I believe the marshals were not in a place you would be if it were running competitively. The driver died of natural causes resulting in the accident, not the other way around. As far as timing goes, I believe Graeme was substantially the quickest, but it wasn't officially timed so no-one knows for real, and it wouldn't suit the F1 boys if it was known they were blown away by a private, almost self build car!

As such, Goodwood can be dismissed from the comparison. Sort of 'Top Gear' approach to hillclimbing.

[blackx]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

So F1-Cars are still allowed to compete. Only the current cars with the current drivers seem to be banned from the competition.

Thats because its deemed to be testing if they are timed..

[chunder]

I was there when Keikki did his quick run and believe me it was a ar better sight than a load of rev limiter wheel spinning!

Yes Darth it is really just a show and an "event" rather than a times thing, the huge majority of drivers simply coast up the hill

There are a few who have a punt at a time, but probably count them on one hand, mainly the rally men who are sideways everywhere!!

Still would be great to see Bruno, Felix and others blatting up there!! And I think Wooley is right, it wouldnt do in the BRDC for F1 cars to be beaten by some back yard special!! Its the kind of attitude that lost them the GP!!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Darth Vader

I believe there were 3 fatalities in the British Hillclimb Championship since its creation was back in the fifties.

Firstly the British Hillclimb Championship began in 1947.

Second I have to agree with the general concensus that Goodwood hillclimb course is a bit of a red herring. It is allowed to run demonstrations with the times being given, however I guess if there is a very quick run then the timekeepers will probaly miss recording it!

Finally Craigantlet would be OK for the Europeans as would Lhergy Frissel as both are wide public roads. However both would require the Europeans to undertake TWO ferry crossings and for that reason alone would be prohibitively expensive for the competitors.