Rule 94 Re: Engines In Modified Production

[chezza]

FBF25T has a point there. The scrutineers at meetings are there to make safety checks and not to check eligibility, you would have to have a dedicated eligibilty scrutineer there if you wanted to check the legality of cars. This checking of eligibility is something we've also had trouble with in racing this year too.

[Slow]

FBF25T To me, the regs are clear.....

......how they have been applied is not

[FBF25T]

Originally Posted by Slow

FBF25T To me, the regs are clear.....

......how they have been applied is not

I simply answered your question. Note my comment re Scrutineers, it is up to other competitors to draw the scruts attention to discrepancies. It doesn't need to be a protest.

[v8 power]

Originally Posted by Slow

What you can change appears to be clear if the Bluebook is followed, but sometimes application of the regs can seem variable...

So, what about plastic windscreens in Mod Prod saloons then ?

The Blue book mentions replacing side and rear windows with plastic but does not mention the windscreen.

If it's not mentioned then it's not legal. Very simple.

It should be pointed out that eligibility scrutineers are usually not well versed in the rules either! Just a few weeks back a competitor was told by an eligibility scrute that his car was fine at a Nat B event when it broke a whole bunch of rules

[Pugdriver205]

Its ok to have an 16v head ontop without fouling the regs according to my previous engine builders - Is that 166 @ the flywheel or the wheels -If you don't mind me asking ? (Q for smkeown)

[Slow]

Originally Posted by FBF25T

I simply answered your question. Note my comment re Scrutineers, it is up to other competitors to draw the scruts attention to discrepancies. It doesn't need to be a protest.

It was a rhetorical question.
I have spoken to a scrutineer, I was advised that to have a definative ruling I would have put in a protest but why should I have to put money up when a car is clearly outside the regs?

[FBF25T]

In that case you were unlucky, or the scrutineer didn't agree with you [but he should have said]. I queeried a ''standard production car'' with a scrutineer last year, after scrutineering, and before timed runs, it was sorted and the car was moved the correct class. I have known other occasions when it has been dealt with on that basis. I have also had email correspondance with a CofC re Vauxhaul and over two litre engined escorts, and he refused to move them without a protest. In fact the championship i was chasing gave extra points in big classes, and it was advantageous to leave em in as I won the class!!

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by FBF25T

Doclands Light Railway is 100% correct on blocks and capacity.

The reason an Escort can't run 5 link rear is not because of the extra links, but because the floorpan is modified. Tecnically the 205 pinto block is externally different, but any one who goes the protest route on that needs a ''quiet word''

As to space frame cars and beam axles, no that is not legit, a word with the scrutineer should get it looked at.

And my Sunbeam, which is on the cover of the sprint section is also legal!!

IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE FLOORPAN IS MODIFIED!! That is allowed in mod prod but not road going!

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by dlr

Re: “visas can't use 1905cc engines (8v/16v) etc” why not exactly. Firstly the head is free in modprod so you can fit which ever one you want. Secondly capacity is free in modprod as long as you stay in the same capacity class as the original car. The original capacity was 1580cc therefore one would be in the 1401-2000cc class so a Visa could enter as 1401cc or 2000cc or anywhere between. Of course you do realise that the only difference between a 1580cc and 1905cc PSA XU engine is the stroke anyway, bore is 83mm then 73 or 88mm stroke for the 1580 and 1905 respectively but again this is irrelevant as you could enter a 1401cc “205 GTi” or a 2000cc or one anywhere between as capacity is free within the class and irrelevant again as you can do what you want to the internals of the block, bore it out as you wish etc as clearly stated in the Blue Book. You can make an XU up to about 2.3 litre if you want to stroke it long enough with a diesel crank but then that would still be smaller capacity than most 205 block Escorts which are running 2.4 in the 2 litre class

MY POINT IS: The rules state that the block must be externally identifiable as one that would of been fitted to the original car therefore a XU19 block can't be used whereas a XU16 can be.in the case of 205s an XU19JAZ can be used but a XU19J4K (mi16) can't be as it's NOT a specified option. Obviously IF you were to use a correctly numbered block there wouldn't be a problem.

[FBF25T]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE FLOORPAN IS MODIFIED!! That is allowed in mod prod but not road going!

84 says ''chassis must remain to original specification etc'' ''inner wheel arches only may be modified to allow the attachment of damper mountings''

I was always under the impression that was the rule which stopped 5 link, it is however silly, as the set up is gp4 homologated/permitted and Ford once argued that they had built 400 two seater escorts...

[Copperbottom]

IIRC it rule 84 states "original specification in construction and material" which means it has to be one piece welded steel. The wheel arch bit is only relevant to damper mountings as it means that you can't modify any other part of the body for said damper mountings.
should read:Inner wheel arches are the only parts that can be modified for attachment of DAMPER MOUNTINGS.
Rule 71 (road going) States original in construction,DIMENSIONS and material

[dlr]

So why say in the first place that a 1905cc Visa isnt allowed when capacity is irrelevant as long you stay within the class capacity boundries that the vehicle was originally in! No idea where you are getting your block code names from as none of them exist in PSA's history but ignoring me being pedantic I understand your point. Its not the fact that it wasnt "an option" but whether its the same. If you believe a car is running a XU block of the same external dimensions but that isnt externally identifiable as one originally fitted to that car then you should point it out to the owner as they probably didnt know. Same engine type, same physical size so its very unlikely anyone would ever know about it.

Of course its easy with Escorts running 205 blocks as the oil temp sensor is in a different place and they have '205' stamped on them!

Regarding the floorpan, it is not (upto 2007 at least, dont have a 2008 Blur book) allowed to be modified between the wheel centers in modprod! Therefore any Escort with a 4/5 link rear end is illegal. Its not the fact that they have the 5 link as its an addition to the standard suspension and so you retain the original setup, its the fact you have to cut and lift up a small box section under the rear seats to mount the forward section of the links, therefore modifiying the floorpan between the wheel centres, therefore not allowed.

[FBF25T]

84. The chassis or unitary construction must remain to
the manufacturer’s original specification in construction
and material within the wheel hub centres.
Re-positioning of suspension pick-up points and engine
mountings is Permitted. Inner wheel arches only may
be modified to allow for the attachment of damper
mountings.
85. It is only Permitted to make holes for the passage of
cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulics, instrument or fire
extinguisher lines as per Vehicle Regulations. All
redundant holes must be covered with metal plates.
Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed.
86. Bulkheads or inner wings may be modified to
Permit the clearance of the induction system. This
includes air induction ducting, manifolding,
trumpets/ram pipes for engine carburation or fuel
injection system only. A maximum clearance of 7.75cm
will be allowed for any protrusion, but only in the
engine compartment.

Seems clear to me that only the stated mods are allowed, it specifically says inner wings may be modified and holes for certain things are allowed, mounts may be repositioned, not that boxing may be added for link bars.

[dlr]

Yep thats the rule I was referring to. Cannot modify the floor pan between the wheel centres. You could actually interpret it as 5 links are not allowed at all as with them you are not repositioning bits of the suspension, you are actually adding to it...

If any intended modification is not listed in the Blue book then its not allowed

[v8 power]

5-linked Escorts are illegal for that reason in many series - even in something liberal like the DMN series.

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by v8 power

5-linked Escorts are illegal for that reason in many series - even in something liberal like the DMN series.

Actually they ARE legal in DMN

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by dlr

So why say in the first place that a 1905cc Visa isnt allowed when capacity is irrelevant as long you stay within the class capacity boundries that the vehicle was originally in! No idea where you are getting your block code names from as none of them exist in PSA's history but ignoring me being pedantic I understand your point. Its not the fact that it wasnt "an option" but whether its the same. If you believe a car is running a XU block of the same external dimensions but that isnt externally identifiable as one originally fitted to that car then you should point it out to the owner as they probably didnt know. Same engine type, same physical size so its very unlikely anyone would ever know about it.

Of course its easy with Escorts running 205 blocks as the oil temp sensor is in a different place and they have '205' stamped on them!

Regarding the floorpan, it is not (upto 2007 at least, dont have a 2008 Blur book) allowed to be modified between the wheel centers in modprod! Therefore any Escort with a 4/5 link rear end is illegal. Its not the fact that they have the 5 link as its an addition to the standard suspension and so you retain the original setup, its the fact you have to cut and lift up a small box section under the rear seats to mount the forward section of the links, therefore modifiying the floorpan between the wheel centres, therefore not allowed.

You've kinda answered the question yourself as to why I say that 1905cc engines/blocks aren't allowed (XU19 engine code).

Please see my previous post re link boxes.
The problem seems to be with suspension type NOT bodywork anyway.

[v8 power]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

Actually they ARE legal in DMN

Sorry, in class A yes, not the others though.

Except for Class A,
the standard floor pan, sills, door surrounds, bulkheads and roof must remain exactly as
produced by the manufacturer in construction, dimension and material. it is prohibited to cut
any holes or remove any fixed panels from the standard floor pan, front or rear inner or outer
wheel arches, front or rear bulkheads (engine to habitacle and habitacle to boot) for the
BARC SEC Dunlop Motorsport News Saloon Championship
DMN 2008 MSA Approved
Page 13 of 17
purpose of mounting or giving clearance to suspension components. Inner wheel arches may
only be modified to allow the attachment of shock absorber mountings.
Rear valence below bumper level may be modified or removed, provided rear floor pan
remains intact and structurally sound.

[FBF25T]

Originally Posted by Copperbottom

You've kinda answered the question yourself as to why I say that 1905cc engines/blocks aren't allowed (XU19 engine code).

Please see my previous post re link boxes.
The problem seems to be with suspension type NOT bodywork anyway.

I can't see any reference to XU19 in that post, if the block is externally the same it is legal regardless of the code.

The issue is not the suspension type, as additional links are allowed, but modifying the floor pan is not allowed, as it isn't in DMN as far as I know [not that racing holds any interest to me]

[rescue dude]

An Mi16 block is very ,very similar to an 8 valve block but not identical externally.

Reading one of the proposed changes and i quote;

" For road-going series production cars, the cylinder block and cylinder head must remain in the original position and be of the original type and material."

I don't remember any 205 coming as standard from the factory with an Mi16 block or head, so as i interpret the proposed change only 8 valve blocks and heads will be legal for road going in a 205.

Also to fit an Mi16 into a 205 you have to tilt the block backwards a bit to clear the bonnet iirc.

[dlr]

Anyone tilting their engine to fit a 'Mi16' into a 205 deserves the instant bottom end oil surge failure that will happen!

Copperbottom: As ive already said in my earlier post. The only different between the 1580cc and 1905cc 205's is the stroke, the block is identical. You can buy a 1580cc 205 and run it from any capacity from 1401 to 2000cc in that class by stroking it however you want and its irrelevant, likewise with a Visa.

Interesting that Escorts can run 5 links in class A, I wonder how many of them in lower classes are running illegally! Certainly most sprint ones are. They have started kicking them out into Sports Libre in the West country so no doubt that will spread across the nation.

Rescue dude: Correct but talking about modified production classes here where the head is free, if they made a 48v head you could fit it to a 205 they would be tiny valves though lol

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by v8 power

Sorry, in class A yes, not the others though.

Read the section on suspension; rules 5.8.2 and 5.8.3

[Copperbottom]

Originally Posted by FBF25T

I can't see any reference to XU19 in that post, if the block is externally the same it is legal regardless of the code.

The issue is not the suspension type, as additional links are allowed, but modifying the floor pan is not allowed, as it isn't in DMN as far as I know [not that racing holds any interest to me]

Please re-read the 1st post where I say:"All of these have different casting numbers to the original so are therefore NOT externally identifiable as being original."
The problems I've heard of with 5 linked escorts is because they don't have leaf springs,as I've already stated the rules about floor pans say nothing about shape or size only material and construction

[FBF25T]

If they don't have leaf springs then it is clearly not the original with additional links/springs [whatever the wording is]. Simple, but the other reg still prevents it.

You are the only person referring to XU19, not DLR .

[FBF25T]

DMN doesn't really interest me and therefore is not something I have read all the regs on, but you are correct it does allow floor pan mods for RWD, which as I said above is sensible I think and should be allowed in sprints. I should know better and realise to read all the regs!!