Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 4 Mar 2013, 23:03 (Ref:3214273)   #1
Chappelli
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
New Zealand
Auckland
Posts: 1,188
Chappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridChappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Erebus Way.... (merged)

From 3rd best team in 2012, to 3 of the slowest cars at Clipsal, SBR has a new name, a new owner and some beautiful sounding new cars....

Many were picking the new SBR to be ahead of the Kelly’s in the battle of the new cars to the class, but while it appears that it’s status quo in the Kelly gangs pace department, the first outing for the Mercedes has been a monumental leap backwards for a team that last year had all three of their wagons finish the Championship in the top 10.....

So, where to for Erebus from here? Will we see the know how that made SBR a perennial contender drag the Mercs to some more respectable results in the first half of the season, or will the car suffer longer term with a lack of straight-line speed as the German maestro’s prioritise a looming European season where they have skin in the game, ahead of a customer deal on the other side of the world.... has doing things the “Erebus way” turned the the former Falcon powerhouse into a well financed also rans?
Chappelli is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Mar 2013, 23:21 (Ref:3214281)   #2
GROUPA
Racer
 
GROUPA's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 498
GROUPA should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
In all honesty I thing they did a good job considering the base they were starting with and lack of testing allowed. With the powers that be cutting the costs it has cost Erebus a lot with lack of testing.

Even the factory prepared cars of FPV had issues....I'm sure after the Australian GP the cars will be better for they will use the GP weekend as a test session like all others.

The short lead time and lack of testing is showing but I have faith in the team and the AMG Customer support even leading into the Enduro session in the northern hemisphere.
GROUPA is offline  
Quote
Old 4 Mar 2013, 23:27 (Ref:3214283)   #3
NZSTfan
Veteran
 
NZSTfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
New Zealand
car heaven
Posts: 1,366
NZSTfan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Maybe ask this question again at the end of the year.

If they are still flailing around down the back, then they have a BIG problem.

This is quite common in m/sport when a new manufacturer comes on board. Its all fine and dandy to whip up something on solid works that looks like it should deliver, but putting the machine in race conditions is totally different, irrespective of how much testing and modelling you have done on the car.

I'd hope to see a gradual increase in pace for the mercs, i mean they are the best sounding thing out there for sure (and thats just coming fom TV coverage - i can only imagine what they sound like in real life, or wait until April when they come to NZ)
NZSTfan is offline  
__________________
"You see, the problem with NZ is that we all think we are a poor Australia, when in all reality we are just a rich Fiji" - Owen Evans, April 2015.
Quote
Old 4 Mar 2013, 23:43 (Ref:3214290)   #4
mountainstar
Veteran
 
mountainstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Posts: 6,884
mountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridmountainstar should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I think the hard part for them with such a new car and engine is that testing is all but nonexistent. Looks like they will have to treat their race weekends as test sessions for a while to work out how to pick up some speed.
mountainstar is offline  
__________________
Wolverines!
Quote
Old 4 Mar 2013, 23:52 (Ref:3214292)   #5
bluesport
Veteran
 
bluesport's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Australia
Posts: 3,557
bluesport User had had their licence endorsedbluesport User had had their licence endorsed
Unfortunately I can't see Erebus getting anywhere in a hurry. Mercedes Benz Aust wisely didn't want any part of this venture and may even put pressure on head office in Germany to pull out of the engine deal before years end (can't have crappodores making Mercs look second rate!)..........and with reports on this forum of Skaife preparing to remove any power advantage they may have, it will be a long road ahead.

I know it's premature but I'm prepared to say that from a manufacturers stand point the championship is already over, it's just a matter of which T8 chassis will win it?
bluesport is online now  
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 00:54 (Ref:3214307)   #6
NZSTfan
Veteran
 
NZSTfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
New Zealand
car heaven
Posts: 1,366
NZSTfan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesport View Post
I know it's premature but I'm prepared to say that from a manufacturers stand point the championship is already over, it's just a matter of which T8 chassis will win it?

I tend to agree with you on that one bluesport
NZSTfan is offline  
__________________
"You see, the problem with NZ is that we all think we are a poor Australia, when in all reality we are just a rich Fiji" - Owen Evans, April 2015.
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 02:56 (Ref:3214329)   #7
greynomad
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Australia
Sydney
Posts: 15
greynomad should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Its all very early days and its going to be a very long year. It will take them a while to get up to speed but they will get there. They sound and look great.
greynomad is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 03:21 (Ref:3214332)   #8
Chappelli
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
New Zealand
Auckland
Posts: 1,188
Chappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridChappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I agree with most of that... and I agree that teething problems are always going to happen.... although however unfortunate it is, I don’t think looking and sound great is going to help their lap times.

My point is however, that everyone is using unfamiliar/untested chassis, with the Kellys sharing in the pain that is bringing an entirely new package to the track....

The Kellys however performed better in Q1 this year, than they did last year.... so while an entirely new package is a challenge, the regulations are specifically designed to provide a level-ish playing field with the Kellys being some sort of evidence that status quo can be achieved (or at the very least evidence that what Erebus rolled out was below what probably was expected).

Crystal balling a little... a think they’ll struggle in the engine dept. all year. I think we could well see Slade and Holdsworth sniffing around for seats elsewhere and it wouldn’t surprise me if we some staff movement in the workshop... unless Mercedes decide they want in, I think it’s going to be a very long few years for Erebus and in the near future at least, I can’t seem them being the contender that SBR was....
Chappelli is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 05:27 (Ref:3214359)   #9
rich07
Veteran
 
rich07's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Australia
Victoria
Posts: 8,611
rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!rich07 has a real shot at the podium!
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesport View Post
Unfortunately I can't see Erebus getting anywhere in a hurry. Mercedes Benz Aust wisely didn't want any part of this venture and may even put pressure on head office in Germany to pull out of the engine deal before years end
I dont think so.

Mercedes Benz Aus arent paying for the engine deal so I dont think they have much sway in that department. As long as AMG/HWA still get paid by Erebus they'll still keep working on the engines etc.

Mercedes Aus may be narrow sighted but Norbert Haug was apparently a fan of the idea (yeah I know hes gone now), not sure what Toto Wolff thinks but as long as the money keeps rolling their way I dont think he'll be in a hurry to wrap things up.
rich07 is offline  
__________________
Somebody asked if the McLaren F1 was going to be like the Ferrari F40, Gordon Murray replied, "I don't think so, there's no one at McLaren who can weld that badly."
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 05:36 (Ref:3214361)   #10
Nicholosophy
Veteran
 
Nicholosophy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Australia
Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Posts: 1,120
Nicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridNicholosophy should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Have to remember that it isn't just about the chassis. The engine will need to be fine tuned for Australian conditions. They were having issues with their throttle system and what not. Just because the chassis is the same doesn't mean that all the systems are the same.

I also suspect it doesn't help having only three months to build 3 cars and get them tested. There might not be testing but I reckon T8 and other will have had cars on test beds looking at all sorts of different setups and the like.

It also doesn't help that Maro Engle is basically useless for developing the car at races. He's going to be flat out learning the tracks and the series. Look at Premat last year and this year so far.

I suspect a year of pain ahead for both Nissan and Erebus. Not so sure about next year though.
Nicholosophy is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 07:23 (Ref:3214384)   #11
formerf1champ
Veteran
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Australia
Vettel's gearbox preparing bench
Posts: 1,030
formerf1champ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
It's only one weekend man. However...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappelli View Post
So, where to for Erebus from here?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chappelli View Post
Crystal balling a little... a think they’ll struggle in the engine dept. all year. I think we could well see Slade and Holdsworth sniffing around for seats elsewhere and it wouldn’t surprise me if we some staff movement in the workshop...I think it’s going to be a very long few years for Erebus and in the near future at least, I can’t seem them being the contender that SBR was....
This was all that needed to be written, on another thread.
formerf1champ is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 07:39 (Ref:3214396)   #12
porsche91722
Veteran
 
porsche91722's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Australia
S.E.Qld
Posts: 931
porsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridporsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridporsche91722 should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Sure... they had a poor weekend in Adelaide, but the cars were practically straight out of the box, with hardly any test klms on them. $$$ don't seem to be an issue, so I think Betty will throw everything at it.
Now I don't think for one moment , that the powers that be, would give them any advantage. However, it won't be a good look, if the Mercedes badged cars fail to perform before the end of the year. V8SC's have been crowing long and hard about the two new additions to the grid this year, in Nissan and Mercedes (sorry, Erebus ), so one way or another, expect to see some miraculous improvements by about mid season. I'm sure they wouldn't want to give MB Aust any ammunition to have them removed.
porsche91722 is offline  
__________________
Go the mighty Flying Lizards
"A good way to gauge the strength of your argument is to weight the quality of the rebuttals. Strong arguments have low quality rebuttals." David Heinemeier Hansson
Quote
Old 5 Mar 2013, 15:49 (Ref:3214600)   #13
davester
Racer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 474
davester should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't happening already, that an Erebus/SBR developed engine may taking shape, in much the same way FPR took over the UK sourced Prodrive grenades. I'm not suggesting Erebus take over the engine program, but the resources should be there to knock one up the Erebus and PW way if he is still there. There is a lot of world class knowhow in SBR and Aus on how to extract circuit ponies from 5 litres.

Somehow I reckon the outright numbers or the curves may not be the problem, as AMG would have had full engine profile targets in developing these powerpacks. It only takes a small delivery problem to consistently knock hundredths out of each straight, which quickly accumulate into tenths on the lap timer.

Erebus will be ok.
davester is offline  
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2013, 02:10 (Ref:3215348)   #14
Denosaur
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Albania
Australia
Posts: 1,133
Denosaur should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridDenosaur should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by davester View Post
I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't happening already, that an Erebus/SBR developed engine may taking shape, in much the same way FPR took over the UK sourced Prodrive grenades. I'm not suggesting Erebus take over the engine program, but the resources should be there to knock one up the Erebus and PW way if he is still there. There is a lot of world class knowhow in SBR and Aus on how to extract circuit ponies from 5 litres.
Agree!!! FPR was a shambless with the imported engine and it took that move to get them right. Mind you, by then their prized steerer had packed up for the greener pastures of T8.

I remember getting told once at HRT, that what they see on the dyno, doesn't ever transfer perfectly to the engine bay and the track.


Quote:
Originally Posted by davester View Post
Somehow I reckon the outright numbers or the curves may not be the problem, as AMG would have had full engine profile targets in developing these powerpacks. It only takes a small delivery problem to consistently knock hundredths out of each straight, which quickly accumulate into tenths on the lap timer.
They should have a mountain of data and simulation software to be able to hit this nail on the head. If the Kelly's are talking about throwing another set of cams at their engine to help sort it out, sounds like they've pretty much got a handle on it, as the bottom end would almost be the same as the GM block in terms of spec's.

With AMG's "flat plane crank", exhaust, intake and firing order system, goodness knows what they're going to have to do to extract the addtional power out. At least they'll have SBR trace data from last year to see there weak points.
Denosaur is offline  
__________________
It's all about speed! Hot, nasty bad-ass speed!!
Velociraptor Performance Industries
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2013, 02:45 (Ref:3215355)   #15
Chatters
Veteran
 
Chatters's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Australia
Radelaide, South Australia
Posts: 5,387
Chatters should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridChatters should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I have to agree with most of the sentiments already posted. It's too soon to say they will struggle for the entire year IMO. Both the Nissan and Erebus teams have admitted they are still chasing more power from their engines, so their competitiveness depends on how quickly they can chase those power gains.

Don't forget too that the Mercs have a fly-by-wire throttle, and that seemed to be causing them a fair few problems, which you can safely say is a teething issue. How many race cars these days use a fly-by-wire throttle system? Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members among us may be able to fill answer that one for me.
Chatters is offline  
__________________
"A lot of people go through life doing things badly. Racing’s important to men who do it well. When you’re racing, it... it’s life. Anything that happens before or after... is just waiting." - Steve McQueen
Quote
Old 7 Mar 2013, 02:58 (Ref:3215358)   #16
EfiOz
Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 509
EfiOz should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
We've had DBW on nearly all of the Ferrari's we've raced for over a decade as well as a couple of Lamborghini's we've built for track and targa over the last 6 years.

The SLS GT3 also has DBW but that car isn't limited to the "spec" ecu of V8SC.
EfiOz is offline  
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2013, 11:14 (Ref:3216338)   #17
ff s conscience
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Australia
Melbourne
Posts: 1,561
ff s conscience should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridff s conscience should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridff s conscience should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatters View Post
I have to agree with most of the sentiments already posted. It's too soon to say they will struggle for the entire year IMO. Both the Nissan and Erebus teams have admitted they are still chasing more power from their engines, so their competitiveness depends on how quickly they can chase those power gains.

Don't forget too that the Mercs have a fly-by-wire throttle, and that seemed to be causing them a fair few problems, which you can safely say is a teething issue. How many race cars these days use a fly-by-wire throttle system? Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members among us may be able to fill answer that one for me.
As effy said, DBW has been around a while.

Ferrari 360C had them since 1999, and all Ferrari since.

All Gallardo too.

I can't see how they'll ever get decent torque at such lazy rpm.

They need to use nearer 9000rpm to make the potential power. And the flat plane crank just can't turn torque like a 90.

Ask Audi.. they learned all the lessons in DTM in the early 90s
ff s conscience is offline  
__________________
Real race cars have more camshafts than doors
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2013, 18:03 (Ref:3216430)   #18
TWRv12
Veteran
 
TWRv12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,975
TWRv12 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTWRv12 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by ff s conscience View Post

I can't see how they'll ever get decent torque at such lazy rpm.

They need to use nearer 9000rpm to make the potential power. And the flat plane crank just can't turn torque like a 90.

Ask Audi.. they learned all the lessons in DTM in the early 90s
So three, six or twelve months to sort the engine?
TWRv12 is offline  
__________________
Cromley: "With the margin Gareth has, he doesn't need to play for sheep stations"
Quote
Old 9 Mar 2013, 19:39 (Ref:3216467)   #19
Bell_End
Racer
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Jamaica
Church Tower
Posts: 258
Bell_End should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatters View Post
Don't forget too that the Mercs have a fly-by-wire throttle, and that seemed to be causing them a fair few problems, which you can safely say is a teething issue. How many race cars these days use a fly-by-wire throttle system? Maybe one of the more knowledgeable members among us may be able to fill answer that one for me.
I reckon the root cause of all these problems is a cooling one, the pedal was getting way to hot number one, also I noticed that on every pitstop they had a guy blowing air into the radiator for as long as possible after changing the tyre (and didn't look like he was trying to clear out the ducts) and also noticed on the main straight the merc ducting out to clean air more than once.. If the pedal was getting to 90*+ I hate to know what under bonnet temps ended up at and how reliable some electronic sensors are at those temps vs a cable

Also I have no doubt the Mercs and Nissans are down on power vs the old dinosaur 2vers..
Bell_End is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2013, 22:58 (Ref:3216810)   #20
Crash Test
Veteran
 
Crash Test's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Australia
Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 9,208
Crash Test should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridCrash Test should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Don't forget that the engine is now a lot closer to the firewall, and some of the old tricks to help alleviate help dispersion may not necessarily have to be used to date... Also, some race boots are better than others...
Crash Test is offline  
__________________
Love you long time
Quote
Old 10 Mar 2013, 23:13 (Ref:3216816)   #21
GTRMagic
Race Official
1% Club
 
GTRMagic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Australia
Sell me this pen....
Posts: 46,570
GTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameGTRMagic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Water cooled firewalls coming up??
GTRMagic is offline  
__________________
Happy David Thexton Day, 21st March 2003
“I am not uncertain” - Dollar Bill Stern, Billions
“Fear stimulates my imagination” - Don Draper, Mad Men
“Everybody Lies” - Dr Gregory House
Quote
Old 11 Mar 2013, 01:16 (Ref:3216848)   #22
Samwhk
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
New Zealand
Posts: 397
Samwhk should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Jack Perkins tweeted during Clipsal that some teams should go back to using LPs wooden gas pedal!
Samwhk is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Mar 2013, 09:40 (Ref:3216943)   #23
peckstar
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2004
Cayman Islands
Posts: 16,040
peckstar has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
some highlights from Bettys live chat on the v8 site

Erebus - meaning the darkness, in that there was nothing there and then along came me!!!!!!!

SVG - i do have a comment, but it will just have to stay tucked away for a while,

Merc up to speed - me , personally , think that about mid season , you will start seeing something

Why SBR - when i met ross and then jimmy , it was like to older brothers, they make me feel very safe in what they handed to me, i was one lucky girl , to meet them

Parity - comes in the rules, we all need to be with in the guilde lines, hopefully we get it right , he he

Most importantly - today i put a BIG bit of purple across the fringe, and the hot pink, trying to be good for my hairdresser
peckstar is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Mar 2013, 20:15 (Ref:3218483)   #24
Chappelli
Veteran
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
New Zealand
Auckland
Posts: 1,188
Chappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridChappelli should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Great effort in Q1 by Slade... Here's hoping it's a sign of results to come in the near future.
Chappelli is offline  
Quote
Old 14 Mar 2013, 20:51 (Ref:3218512)   #25
JAFA851
Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
New Zealand
Posts: 534
JAFA851 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
some highlights from Bettys live chat on the v8 site

Erebus - meaning the darkness, in that there was nothing there and then along came me!!!!!!!
Is she for real??????

Quote:
Originally Posted by peckstar View Post
Most importantly - today i put a BIG bit of purple across the fringe, and the hot pink, trying to be good for my hairdresser
Well if this is the "most important" thing on her agenda, then that pretty much confirms my thoughts about the whole Erebus situation, and probably SVG's too. I don't see them as anything more than grid fillers for the rest of the year and into next year, and then Erebus dissapperaring shortly after.
JAFA851 is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ross Stone To Leave Erebus!! GTRMagic Australasian Touring Cars. 52 28 Jun 2015 04:46
Engel & Erebus - Both docked 102 points ?? ForumNick Australasian Touring Cars. 18 17 Dec 2013 22:11
Erebus Driver Safety E-Cell TWRv12 Australasian Touring Cars. 25 26 Nov 2013 04:21
Have you seen this pit stop demonstration by Erebus? beardyfinn Australasian Touring Cars. 4 16 Aug 2013 03:05
Erebus... 275 GTB-4 Australasian Touring Cars. 25 3 Oct 2012 01:08


All times are GMT. The time now is 11:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.