Best car or best driver?

[amiers]

Was having a bit of a argument with a mate over drivers who have won the ATTC/supercar over the years. the main core of it was what years the best driver won it against the best car. for example 91/92 the GTR, good drivers but nothing was going to beat those cars. on the other side 85 Jim Richards.

Thoughts?

[MrX]

How long is a piece of string?

[Wrighty05]

1985 I feel Richo was in the best car (maybe bar the Volvo), but for the majority of 1990 he wasn't.

[Seton Fanatic]

I'll give it a go from 1977 (I don't have detailed records of ATCC racing until then). Others can add their opinions before then.

1977 Moffat - Best Car, Team and Driver
1978 Brock - Best Car, Team and Driver
1979 Morris - Best Driver, Best Car, HDT best team
1980 Brock - Best Car, Team and Driver
1981 Johnson - Best Car, Best Driver, HDT best team
1982 Johnson - Best 'legal Car, Brock best driver, Moffat best team
1983 Moffat - Best Car, Best Driver, Best Team
1984 Johnson - Best Driver, HDT Best Car, Moffat Best Team
1985 Richards - Best Driver, Team and Car
1986 Francevic - None of the above. Most consistent driver would be a fair rating. I'm still baffled how Nissan and Fury didn't win that title. Bowe was faster than Francevic in the same team, as well, which is why I didn't give him the best driver. Team and Car were similarly inferior.
1987 Richards - Best Car. Seton was the best driver in 1987 in my mind. Richards, to a great degree, didn't do anything special, other than that classic Oran Park showdown, that was out of the ordinary. Arguably, Seton could have won Oran Park and the title had Fury not been so timid in letting Richards pass him for second.
1988 Johnson - Best Driver, Best Team and Best Car
1989 Johnson - Best Driver, Best Team and Best Car
1990 Richards - Best Driver, Best Team, DJR Best Car for majority of series
1991 Richards - Best Team, Best Car. Longhurst best driver of 1991, followed by Seton.
1992 Skaife - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
1993 Seton - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
1994 Skaife - Best Team. Seton win best driver for me, in a photo finish over Brock. The GMS cars noticeably dropped away over the series; GSR best cars, in my opinion.
1995 Bowe - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car, Worst Tyres
1996 Lowndes - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
1997 Seton - Best Driver, Best Team, HRT Best Car
1998 Lowndes - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
1999 Lowndes - Best Team, Best Car, Skaife best driver
2000 Skaife - Best Team, Best Car, Tander best driver
2001 Skaife - Best Team, Best Car, Best driver
2002 Skaife - Best Team, Best Car, Best driver
2003 Ambrose - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
2004 Ambrose - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car
2005 Ingall - Best team, Best car, Lowndes wins best driver, only because I didn't feel there were any more standouts.
2006 R. Kelly - Best team, Best Car, Skaife best driver (won the most races)
2007 Tander - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car

Controversial, I know. I welcome the debate.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Seton Fanatic

1986 Francevic - None of the above. Most consistent driver would be a fair rating. I'm still baffled how Nissan and Fury didn't win that title. Bowe was faster than Francevic in the same team, as well, which is why I didn't give him the best driver. Team and Car were similarly inferior.

I'd still say Francevic was the best driver, part of his problem was he didn't like being 'just a driver' like he was when the former Petch team became the Sheppard/Volvo Dealer Team from Round 3, and never quite 'fitted in' there.

[Mark Petch]

Originally Posted by racer69

I'd still say Francevic was the best driver, part of his problem was he didn't like being 'just a driver' like he was when the former Petch team became the Sheppard/Volvo Dealer Team from Round 3, and never quite 'fitted in' there.

Hi all. No question in my mind that John was a better driver than Robbie.
Although we never had the benefit of Data logging systems back then, right from Johns Oran Park test he quickly had the wood on Robbie, much to the latter's chagrin.

Robbie was always looking for reasons to turn me against John, like trying to blame John for the diff failure when we had a commanding lead at the Sandown 500. It was not JB's kerb hopping that seized the crown wheel and pinion, but Wayne Eckersley ignoring Randel Edgells advice to give it more back lash for the enduros than we normally ran for the sprint races.

To Robbies credit he could get the best out of a bad car, But once JB had helped us improve the car, then John would be consistently quicker.

Robbies was very much like Peter Brocks in that both of them could drag a heap of **** round a circuit faster than most but both were hopeless at developing a good chassis. Brock drove one of my Tranzams, and literally turned the tried and true set up, upside down!

It was not untill we took the car back to the workshop, unbeknown to Pete, and changed it back to our normal set up, that Peter was finally able to qualify the car on the front row of the grid along side his team mate Andy McElrea. Andy went on to win the Championship for us, beating Jim Richards, Kayne Scott and Paul Radisich in the process.

I loved those cars, real racecars in my opinion, I still have the best one we ever built and even now it would run away and hide from the very best Australian Supercar. Scooters 54.8 around Puke all those years ago, is still mighty impressive in any body's language.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Mark Petch

Hi all. No question in my mind that John was a better driver than Robbie.
Although we never had the benefit of Data logging systems back then, right from Johns Oran Park test he quickly had the wood on Robbie, much to the latter's chagrin.

Robbie was always looking for reasons to turn me against John, like trying to blame John for the diff failure when we had a commanding lead at the Sandown 500. It was not JB's kerb hopping that seized the crown wheel and pinion, but Wayne Eckersley ignoring Randel Edgells advice to give it more back lash for the enduros than we normally ran for the sprint races.

To Robbies credit he could get the best out of a bad car, But once JB had helped us improve the car, then John would be consistently quicker.

Robbies was very much like Peter Brocks in that both of them could drag a heap of **** round a circuit faster than most but both were hopeless at developing a good chassis. Brock drove one of my Tranzams, and literally turned the tried and true set up, upside down!

It was not untill we took the car back to the workshop, unbeknown to Pete, and changed it back to our normal set up, that Peter was finally able to qualify the car on the front row of the grid along side his team mate Andy McElrea. Andy went on to win the Championship for us, beating Jim Richards, Kayne Scott and Paul Radisich in the process.

I loved those cars, real racecars in my opinion, I still have the best one we ever built and even now it would run away and hide from the very best Australian Supercar. Scooters 54.8 around Puke all those years ago, is still mighty impressive in any body's language.

That was a very enjoyable read. Thank you.

In answer to the question... do you mean car/driver combo? If so you can't go past either Richards or Skaife in the GTR. That car was unbeatable... even with the 1500kg and restrictor plate(?) limiting power, it was sensational.

I used to believe the Sierra was unbeatable but the GTR absolutely put it to pasture.

[00 XR8]

Originally Posted by Seton Fanatic

1995 Bowe - Best Driver, Best Team, Best Car, Worst Tyres

I won't go through and pick out everything I disagree with........... but can you explain the 'worst tyre' comment on this one? I remember Dunlop had that earthquake near their factory early in the year, so supplies ran low, but they did win the ATCC, Sandown, & Bathurst in 1995....... so it was hardly a bad product.....

[Senna05]

Lets quantify that statement - Japanese Dunlops were good, but the Brittish ones wenre't so good.

The Yoko's that year went ok on the Holdens.. And the Bridgestones were still a few years away from using their F1 technology to make super tyres.

95 was also the first year Hoosier were used in the AMSCAR series, from memory.

[racer69]

British Dunlop's still won races late in the ATCC, then Sandown & Bathurst though.

Hoosier came along in 1996 in the ATCC with some of the privateers, Goodyear was the control tyre for the AMSCAR Series in 1997

Originally Posted by Seton Fanatic

1987 Richards - Best Car. Seton was the best driver in 1987 in my mind. Richards, to a great degree, didn't do anything special, other than that classic Oran Park showdown, that was out of the ordinary. Arguably, Seton could have won Oran Park and the title had Fury not been so timid in letting Richards pass him for second.

what though if Fury hadn't have moved over for Seton on the last lap of the Sandown round to let him win ?

I've never been a big Jim Richards fan but i'd argue he did do some 'special' stuff in 1987, he gave everyone a flogging at Surfers Paradise, and won from 9th place at the penultimate round at Amaroo Park.

Your right though in that it was hard to fault Seton's driving in 1987

[Seton Fanatic]

Honestly, when one thinks about it, the tyre performance of the Dunlops, particularly the British ones in the ATCC, was pretty poor. The Bridgestones had bulk grip, compared to the Dunlops. There was no excuse for GSR and HRT not to have won the title in 1995. 1995 will always reflect well on DJR and John Bowe, in my mind, for those reasons.

[Wrighty05]

Seton lost the title in the 1st 2 rounds in 1995. The gearshift breaking at EC didn't help either.

Those DJR Fords had bulk grunt though.

[Gaz170]

Originally Posted by Seton Fanatic

Honestly, when one thinks about it, the tyre performance of the Dunlops, particularly the British ones in the ATCC, was pretty poor. The Bridgestones had bulk grip, compared to the Dunlops. There was no excuse for GSR and HRT not to have won the title in 1995. 1995 will always reflect well on DJR and John Bowe, in my mind, for those reasons.

Considering that by Bathurst, they were using tyres literally pulled from the rubble of the factory at Kobe. And Dick stated that in 96 the whole car setup was based around the available tyres, rather than picking the tyres to suit the setup as was the norm before control tyres.