Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Australasian Touring Cars.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10 Jul 2021, 10:13 (Ref:4060607)   #151
Backagain
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 406
Backagain has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Power under the curve would be an issue, not how much but the curve itself would have a totally different shape.
It might be possible to match max power but
as you say, the shape of the in phase diagram would produce totally different characteristics.

Last edited by Backagain; 10 Jul 2021 at 10:20.
Backagain is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jul 2021, 11:42 (Ref:4060615)   #152
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Power under the curve would be an issue, not how much but the curve itself would have a totally different shape.
Once you scale them to the same road speed at the redline as below, they are actually very similar in power delivery in the relevant road speed range in the same gear -- neither engine is turbocharged, they are both very linear, so it is not the big problem as implied IMO.




As you can see, the scaled Ford has no problems keeping up with the Chevy -- the Ford actually has slightly more mid-range, and all-but identical top-end! The only difference would be off the line, which is wheel spin central territory anyway and not a big issue IMO.

Ignore the torque at the engine, only the torque at the wheels is important, and the Ford with a 24% shorter diff ratio will have 24% more torque at the wheels relative to the Chevrolet than what the curve shows, which should make them about equal.

Of course fitting an exactly identical engine to both would save parity debates, but I like the idea of each vehicle have it's own distinct character -- the low-revving barotone Chevy vs the screaming Ford.

Gotta be better than Supercars' plan to give the Ford an unfavourable rod-to-stroke length ratio compared to stock, and then expect it to make the same power with less displacement and the same maximum rpm as the Chevrolet.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Jul 2021 at 12:12.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jul 2021, 12:19 (Ref:4060616)   #153
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Oops, I noticed I didn't scale the Ford quite perfectly and the editing time expired, it's actually an even closer match than I thought:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Backagain View Post
the shape of the in phase diagram would produce totally different characteristics.
They are actually a very good match.

They don't quite match below 3000rpm on the Chevy which is 3500 rpm on the Ford, but I don't think that's relevant for a racing application -- if your revs have dropped that low, you're in the wrong gear!

Of course, these are the 500hp road models and it would change a bit when they tuned up to 600 hp -- but matching Coyote and LS engines is what Supercars are trying to do anyway. You've got the flexibility of variable cam timing on the Ford engine after all, so you can use that to adjust cam angles at certain rpm (even to detune the Ford in places) to try to get it as close as possible.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Jul 2021 at 12:30.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jul 2021, 12:42 (Ref:4060620)   #154
Backagain
Racer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 406
Backagain has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Oops, I noticed I didn't scale the Ford quite perfectly and the editing time expired, it's actually an even closer match than I thought:





They are actually a very good match.

They don't quite match below 3000rpm on the Chevy which is 3500 rpm on the Ford, but I don't think that's relevant for a racing application -- if your revs have dropped that low, you're in the wrong gear!

Of course, these are the 500hp road models and it would change a bit when they tuned up to 600 hp -- but matching Coyote and LS engines is what Supercars are trying to do anyway. You've got the flexibility of variable cam timing on the Ford engine after all, so you can use that to adjust cam angles at certain rpm (even to detune the Ford in places) to try to get it as close as possible.
Please google "in phase diagram" and its significance in power measurements and characteristics which should also explain the term "power under the curve".
Backagain is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jul 2021, 15:59 (Ref:4060647)   #155
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I need more recent data than 2015.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Old 10 Jul 2021, 20:54 (Ref:4060669)   #156
V8 Fireworks
Veteran
 
V8 Fireworks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,923
V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridV8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Backagain View Post
Please google "in phase diagram" and its significance in power measurements and characteristics which should also explain the term "power under the curve".
Would you care to elaborate? Googling "in phase diagram" only returns results about this phase changes from solid to liquid, or austentic phases of steel...

The power under the curve is the same, that is the curve shown above when people talk about power under the curve, is it not?

Source -- I'm an engineer. The only other time I've heard of phase is when it is used to describe any reciprocating function -- control theory, acoustics, electrical etc.

Edit -- Do you mean the uneven power strokes desired in MotoGP and the cylinders having different phases to each other? The 'big bangers' etc? I hardly think that's relevant to an 8-cylinder engine in a car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I need more recent data than 2015.
They are the same crate engines which are available now.

Matching engines that operate in different rpm ranges is eminently doable IMO.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 10 Jul 2021 at 21:05.
V8 Fireworks is offline  
Quote
Old 11 Jul 2021, 10:54 (Ref:4060729)   #157
Casper
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,211
Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post


They are the same crate engines which are available now.

Matching engines that operate in different rpm ranges is eminently doable IMO.
As long as you believe it then all is good.
Casper is offline  
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
F3000 as a pre F1 category? Yoong Montoya Formula One 30 28 Nov 2002 19:45
Is Montoya the record man in this category ? Speed Formula One 34 17 Sep 2002 15:03
Hypothetical WSC Category DNQ Sportscar & GT Racing 50 4 Jul 2002 17:59
F1: A scream for one who consider that is an elitist and eurocentric category Mekola Formula One 5 7 Jun 2002 22:10
THE GTS Category Geva racing Sportscar & GT Racing 6 5 Nov 2000 16:51


All times are GMT. The time now is 15:22.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.