[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[carbon_titanium]

Actually I think that a V4 is a very small and compact engine, Where once there was a B6, maybe a V4 suits better than a V6. Is more about a "space comfort" issue than performance/consumes/efficency.

[hcl123]

Its more a question of torque at low, very low to med revs (city driving etc)... usually for production cars, real high revs are out of the question ( even so, speeding tickets already feel worst than a pita + toothache lol)

The V4 might be good for the small & lightest of Porsche production cars (civilized of course)... which is not exactly the Cayman territory... unless the hybrid system is very very good and assures an electric motor constantly helping the ICE to have the "torque" of a muscular car at very low speeds, which is kind of moot because city driving the discharge rates tend to be always much higher than the recharge ( bigger exhaust turbine etc -> in motorsport is much more easy to engineer this things, much more specific targets not so varied)

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Yes surely will be around 90º, no sense to build it with a 60º design and of course can't be 180º. By the way, I expect to see V4 replace the B6 in next future, in "cheaper" porsche cars like cayman or boxster.

Errr... Maybe, but IMHO it's hard to say. Porsche likes the boxer design, and remember that boxer engines are different than 180 deg V engines. The boxer 4 and particularly 6 are well balanced. I think that Porsche is interested in a new 4 cyl engine, but personally would expect to see a turbo boxer 4 before we see a V4 in a road going Porsche. I think the V4 for the 919 was selected for size (small) and it's ability to easily act as a stressed member and less as a predictor for future cars. They will for sure continue to carry over between the road and racing engineering. That is the relevancy of the engineering by the racing group.

Richard

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by hcl123

Those box engines perhaps will never go to a prototype... not enough space to the underfloor (perhaps Mazda someday will surprise with a small turbodiesel, box .. placed a little higher )

The same with 60º, prototypes will never be that narrow... no need for them and is worst.

[to replace the B6 doubt... V6 sells... for consumption just rev lower(limit)... power is never the same of motorsport( revs very high always)... and a production car like the Cayman is way much heavier, it will appreciate plenty the more torque of a V6 specially at low(er) revs... ppl still has this notion of seeing everything by the "max" power (hp) rating... its very wrong (what about in between max ?)... its oil selling marketing... ]

Type 935 3.2 Porsche flat-6 was THE dominant engine for C3 cars and 90s LMP cars, and yes there were enough space for it, given the massive size of rear diffuser of Group C cars. As for the angle, Porsche did say it's wide-angle, so 120 degree is a well-educated estimate.

[Richard C]

The trick for the group c Porsches 956/962 was to tilt the entire drivetrain a bit (raise tail of transmission) to make room for the underbody aero. However, I am sure it's much easier with a V engine. Regarding the V angle of the 919 engine, based upon the renderings provided by Porsche it looks to be 90 deg engine.

Richard

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

Type 935 3.2 Porsche flat-6 was THE dominant engine for C3 cars and 90s LMP cars, and yes there were enough space for it, given the massive size of rear diffuser of Group C cars. As for the angle, Porsche did say it's wide-angle, so 120 degree is a well-educated estimate.

There is always a way... somebody always invents something lol

About the wide angle that most seems to be having, it might be due (also, or the principal) to lower to the max possible the center of gravity... cars must be taller this year ( possible lower cornering speed)... but they always find ways to push the car masses down lol.

A boxer perhaps was pushing too much the envelop... don't know -> could had been better ? .. it could in various aspects.

[manthey]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Another (very short) video of the Sebring test: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwRyQRkLu30

seems to me that on exiting the corner there is a sort of squeak (and a spin) by traction control struggling to cope the immense torque

[Adam43]

Could just be a gear change. Or the good old Porsche turbo sound

[CyberMotor]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Could just be a gear change. Or the good old Porsche turbo sound

Sounds to me like the 'good old Porsche turbo sound'.

[Spyderman]

According to this, Porsche are in LMP1 for 3 seasons and then......?
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/112865

[JoestForEver]

I think it's more like PR effort from Porsche to give pressure, asking for Group order on Audi?Hope these two teams can compete fairly

[Spyderman]

I disagree. I don't think Porsche will be a real threat this year.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by JoestForEver

I think it's more like PR effort from Porsche to give pressure, asking for Group order on Audi?Hope these two teams can compete fairly

This is reminiscent of the early 2000s when it seems Audi was held back to allow Bently to win Le Mans. Certainly this is not going to be the case this year but as time progresses and the pressure mounts on Porsche to make good of their P1 effort, who knows what Audi will be asked to do.

DK

[carbon_titanium]

Originally Posted by dxk1

This is reminiscent of the early 2000s when it seems Audi was held back to allow Bently to win Le Mans. Certainly this is not going to be the case this year but as time progresses and the pressure mounts on Porsche to make good of their P1 effort, who knows what Audi will be asked to do.

DK

Different situation, before 2003 audi sport team joest with the R8 FSI was the main VW work team, bentley became the main program of VW only in 2003, when the car was updated and received full support by audi sport and team joest. if am I not wrong before 2003 the bentley team was the same english team (I don't remeber the name) that developed and ran the R8C, of course the english team was somehow supported by VW but not like audi sport and the R8 FSI program. Indeed were two cars that ran in 2 different classes (lmp900 the R8 FSI, GTP the bentley).
In 2014 I think that porsche AG lmp1 program is totally indipendent from VW influence and I don't expect a "civil" war inside VW. Could be intersting to know if porsche AG season budget is close to the audi budget.

[carbon_titanium]

RTN was the team I was talking about. They developed and ran the R8C in 1999 and the bentley speed 8 in 2001 and 2002.

[Spyderman]

Hmm. It seems that Porsche are in a no-win situation. If they loose to Audi it's due to the "obvious" Audi superiority. If they win, it's because Audi were "asked" to allow them to win.
Nonsense! - These two teams will go hammer and tong at each other.

[Richard C]

I totally expect both Audi and Porsche to do their best to beat each other. I don't think either team has been "hobbled" somehow at the VWAG level. I follow F1 closely and just as this F1 season is hard to predict I wouldn't want to predict how things will shake out between Audi, Porsche and Toyota in WEC and LeMans. I think any of those teams would be fools to not consider the other two as being capable of beating them at any time. Especially at LeMans as anything can happen.

Granted, Audi has a proven recent track record, but just enough is different this year, that I would not place any heavy bets on any team. Lastly, regarding the Audi/Porsche battle of the next season (or beyond), I expect Porsche is going to have their share of successes and I would be shocked to see any type of "face saving" move from VWAG in the form of placing a call to Audi and telling them to back off. I just don't think the scenario is going to present itself and even if it did, I can't see them pulling the trigger as I can't see it being done in a way that it wouldn't be exposed and ultimately hurting both brands. I would say VWAGs larger concern is a scenario in which Toyota humiliates both Audi and Porsche at LeMans (not that I think that is going to happen.)

I know some Porsche fans are trying to not get their hopes up, and clearly Porsche itself is rightly trying to set low expectations, but ... I am rooting for a 2014 Porsche LeMans win!

Richard

[carbon_titanium]

Audi, Porsche or Toyota, whoever will win le mans, I don't care. I just wish to see again an epic 24 hours like 2011! 2012 and 2013 editions were quite boring.

[GTfour]

If anything, the VWAG will surely not favour Audi [I]if[I] any sort of orders were to be given out. Firstly, from a publicity point of view, Audi has won enough over the last decade and secondly, don't forget it is still Herr Doktor Ferdinand Piëch behind it all in the end. He will allways favour Porsche above Audi...

[porman]

I'm not so sure about the favoritism on Piech's side. The one thing that is certain however is that Porsche could certainly use some good press. GT3 owners may be a small group, but this stop-sale has already made headlines. There is still no word on what is going on beyond their working to rectify the situation.

It is just a blip on the radar for now.

[JoestForEver]

Originally Posted by carbon_titanium

Different situation, before 2003 audi sport team joest with the R8 FSI was the main VW work team, bentley became the main program of VW only in 2003, when the car was updated and received full support by audi sport and team joest. if am I not wrong before 2003 the bentley team was the same english team (I don't remeber the name) that developed and ran the R8C, of course the english team was somehow supported by VW but not like audi sport and the R8 FSI program. Indeed were two cars that ran in 2 different classes (lmp900 the R8 FSI, GTP the bentley).
In 2014 I think that porsche AG lmp1 program is totally indipendent from VW influence and I don't expect a "civil" war inside VW. Could be intersting to know if porsche AG season budget is close to the audi budget.

Never thought my post could become a war trigger and I surely want no Corp. order at all. Anyway, I think the 2003 car was run by Joest as they didn't present at Le Mans, or they were having their hands full with R10?

[LMP1]

VWAG's brands will create good PR for themselves if the 2014/15/16 WEC and Le Mans go down in history as legendary as a result of the hard fought battle, regardless of who wins.

[Mal]

The key to good and clean racing this year is Toyota. If they are as fast or faster than the others then the opportunity for VW group team orders is not there.

[Spyderman]

I sincerely think that there will be no VAG team orders regardless of the situation.
The benefits obtained from a Le Mans win is directed at brands, and not to the "holding company". Although many Porsche buyers will buy an Audi as a second car, many more will not. The same is true for Audi buyers. Consumers are loyal to brands. Not to Corporate structures.
Audi's importance (from a sales perspective) is much greater to VAG than Porsche. On the other-hand, Porsche is the more profitable company (per unit sold). VAG has very little to gain from messing with this "balance".
In fact; VAG has much more to gain by showing that its two brands are competitive (hopefully), each one offering very different solutions. Regardless of which brand wins, as long as the "loosing" brand shows competitiveness VAG stands to gain.

[Spyderman]

Le Mans is ready:https://twitter.com/GTPorsche/status...179776/photo/1