A New 675 in ALMS at Atlanta

[Tim Northcutt]

Just checked the Prliminary Entry List for the Road Atlanta race at the end of the month...

A Team from Atlanta has acquired a Welter Racing chassis with Mazda power....

We had talked about this chassis and the desire to see someone run one in ALMS...looks like we got our wish...

BTW...does anyone know when the deadline is for entries to that race???

[gttouring]

well I have no idea about deadlines- i won't be racing there-or anywhere in the near future, but it surprises me that anyone is still fighting with the 675, i believe it has pproven to be a dead and very unreliable and unpredictable category, dare i say the DP's are better off as 675 or dare i say 750's!
and i hate those potatoes

[Tim Northcutt]

I have to agree, gttouring....

Visit the "Baby prototypes - why Bother" and weigh in with more on this...your perspective as a racer on this with any specifics or insights would be most appreciated...

In my own thoughts on the past weekend, when I read through the race summaries on the 675s, I can't help but think that those teams are masochistic....talk about the full range of plagues, trials and tribulations....

But on the subject of 750s, I'm withholding judgment on them until I see them in action, especially those teams that will be powered byt the "production engine" option in that category...

But the concept behind the 675 category seems to have flopped...big time...in my opinion...

[veeten]

that was because the category was lost to "wish fulfillment" thinking with the Lola/MG, as some saw it as either an alternative or rival to the LMP900s.

But also the Reynard 2KQ, which was a bad chassis as a 900, was re-made by some teams into a 675 with the smaller engines. ROC Racing and others, including this year's LeMans 675 winner, used this route.

The Reynard's progeny, which ended up as another's chassis, was also seen as another "category-buster", and while showed flashes of brilliance just didn't have the stamina to last out the majority of long distance races so far.

and we won't even go near the Courage C65, which has become another "great hope/hype" for this category.

The LMP750 may just save a lot of us from the total mismanagement of the previous category, by especially going to "production based" engines which allows a wider array of manufacturers a chance to enter prototype racing without the heavy expenditures of the higher classes. Turbo I-4s, V6s, V8s up to the appropriate limits are being made by many auto companies, so there's a plentiful supply of examples for teams to choose from.

Too many chassis that had potential were left out in the cold for the lack of a team & engine contract. Now this can be rectified.

Sure, 675 was a mistake in the greatest magnitude, but hopefully all have learned their lesson from this.

[Tim Northcutt]

ADDED NOTE:

The team is Dawson-Atlanta racing...

Something tells me that this is the Mazda-powered chassis that ran at Le Mans in 2002 and dropped out very early....and this operation bought the chassis from the racing garages of whoever ran it last year.

If I remember, that car was a WR chassis, wasint it???

[veeten]

the auto-exe. WR racing chassis that ran the 4-rotor non-turbo Mazda from last year I believe. It did both Sebring & LeMans.

[19000RPM]

It's actually Downing-Atlanta, owned by Jim Downing. Also ran at Petit Le Mans last year with Yojiri Terada (who finished third in 675 at this year's 24 Hours in a WR). I actually had the opportunity to visit their shop earlier this year...amazing stuff. I believe its the only place that makes HANS devices as well. Glad to see they're back racing though, that Mazda engine is awesome.

-Jeremy

[MulsanneMike]

The WR Mazda entered at Road Atlanta is the same old hulk they raced at Petit last year:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/WR.html

The Downing Mazda weighed nearly 148 kilos more than the Peugeot engined "factory" WR. The factory WR was some 31 kilos overweight for the 675 class.

And Applied Composites in Indianapolis (my current employer) also make the HANS device.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
The team is Dawson-Atlanta racing...

Something tells me that this is the Mazda-powered chassis that ran at Le Mans in 2002 and dropped out very early....and this operation bought the chassis from the racing garages of whoever ran it last year.

If I remember, that car was a WR chassis, wasint it???

All confirmed : it cannot be another chassis or car... it retired after... 24 minutes in 2002 ! A desesperate case, IMHO...

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by MulsanneMike
And Applied Composites in Indianapolis (my current employer)

:applause:

[Lee Janotta]

Meanwhile 750'll just be filler on the entry list with no hope of winning, but costing every bit as much to run as a solid LMP or GTP effort!

The class failed because it wasn't a good time to enter as a manufacturer... Audi was too dominant, there was too little hope of success. But look at the future... There are so many manufacturers who only make smaller engines, and are very good at it. Lightweight prototypes have a wonderful history. And it was just plain cool seeing the giant-killing MGs!

[Tim Northcutt]

the 750 just might be the way to go...I'm withholding judgment on that new class until it runs at least one year, probably two....

the "productin-based" option for engines will help that category cost-wise -- to a degree, as well, as opposed to the 675s running specialized race-built engines that are not cheap...

To Mulsanne Mike:

Your employer has a stellar reputation in the industry....it's gotta be great to work for such an operation...

[veeten]

I don't think so, Lee. With the use of "production based" engines, the present changes in both chassis formulas, and the creation of the LeMans Tournament, the cars will be more conducive towards endurance than overall speed.

Unlike the big brother 900s, the 750s will be more universal seeing as there will be a more plentiful number of smaller teams willing to step up to this class from either GTS or GT, not to mention the present chasses out now that can be upgraded to 750 status.

[Tim Northcutt]

I would agree with you veeten....

Think about one instance that readily emerged in my mind:

Do you see Dyson being content with converting his 675 MGs to the 750 class and running for a class win instead of the overall??

I'm betting that once the "Grandfather Clause" expires, he will go back to the 900 class...

[veeten]

True, Rob is a bit of a stickler for that.

But that does open the door for him if he does stay in the ALMS. By both buying a new 900 chassis and selling off the Lola/MG to one of the smaller teams to equip their way. Then again, Lola is looking to build/develop a new 900 chassis, not to mention other builders will be looking into things now. So, who knows...

[Tim Northcutt]

I'm sure he would sell the MG, the same way that he sold the R&S IIIc to American Spirit/AmeriSuites racing, "Lincoln Log" engine included...

But that team did go to the Rileys to get the aero upgrades they have made over the past 12 months or so....and for their first outing in the R&S car, that team did fairly well at Sebring...

[KA]

Originally posted by veeten
I don't think so, Lee. With the use of "production based" engines, the present changes in both chassis formulas, and the creation of the LeMans Tournament, the cars will be more conducive towards endurance than overall speed.

Unlike the big brother 900s, the 750s will be more universal seeing as there will be a more plentiful number of smaller teams willing to step up to this class from either GTS or GT, not to mention the present chasses out now that can be upgraded to 750 status.

If they get the regs right, then as you say it ought to be ideally placed to do provide a way into the prototype classes for GTS/GT teams, as well as somewhere for the smaller prototype manufacturers to compete- thinking of some of the outfits who build cars for SR2 in Europe, like Lucchini, or some of the less successful LMP900 efforts- I'm sure Norma would be better off trying to compete in a secondary proto class than trying to play with the big boys in 900.....

[rdjones]

Originally posted by veeten
the auto-exe. WR racing chassis that ran the 4-rotor non-turbo Mazda from last year I believe. It did both Sebring & LeMans.

That car has been advertised For Sale in Autosport here in the UK over the last couple of months, someone must have bought or it has come of the market......

[KC]

The problem with a 675 car is that they are chasing after the 900s for the overall win. You cannot expect a 2.0 liter 4 cylinder engine boosted out of sight be able to last against a relatively lazy 7.0 liter V8 in an endurance race. Even if it gets twice the fuel economy and half the tire wear. There is not enough time to be gained in the pits to make the difference. The smaller engine is working a lot harder than the bigger one to produce a lap time that is maybe even. The famous Nissan GTP car with its hugely boosted 4 cylinder was unbeatable in IMSA sprint format but never won LeMans.

The Audi 3.8 liter twin turbo motor is an example of how to make a small motor take on the big blocks. Its about 1/2 the size and I guarantee it has the ability to make a ton more power at the expense of reliability. The motor that is 1/4 the size does not have the luxury of having spare power, it's at max and there is no room for error.

Because of the expense of engine development, the 675s are probably too close in overall expense to the 900s to make them viable as a cheaper way to race. Would you spend 10 million to race and know you most likely will never win or spend 15 million and be on the same playing field as those that do win?

[JAG]

The downfall of LMP675 is that some teams/manufactuer saw them as a cheap way to win overall. The problem is however that to compete with an LMP900/LMGTP for an overall win the 675 has to drive flat out the whole race putting lots of strain on the smaller 675 engies. Don't forget also that in order to get down to the minimum weight the components are very light and fragile, which leads to mechnical problems, especially when being pushed to the limit. The mechanical components of a 675 also need changing more often than a heavier and stronger LMP900/LMGTP increasing costs significantly.

With LMP750 the cars will not be able to compete for overall wins, be able to use less expensive GT type engines , and the heavier weight will make the cars more durable and able to complete more race miles before component changes.

LMP750 should hopefully be the 'cheap' protoype formula for teams wanting to step up from GT/GTS into protoypes who cannot yet afford an LMP900/LMGTP program.

[veeten]

Here's a little thing to do, because it surprised me greatly...

Check the ACO Technical regs 2004, mainly page 6 for the engine specs. Then the same thing for FIA, page 25. Print the pages if you can.

Now, take these and also look at the engine selection specs for Grand Am's Daytona Prototypes.



I believe someone on another thread made the comment about "... taking a 911 gt engine and putting it into a WR chassis...", buddy you don't know just how close you are.

Think about it folks, the LMP750 class, with the use of "production based" engines, give the buyer that one thing that DPs don't have; an incredible power/weight ratio. A far more higher return on the teams initial investment, along with all that ALMS has to offer, including LeMans.

The "grandfathering in" of the 675 chasses just might make better platforms for 750s when using the newer engine formulas. It makes financial sense, in so many ways.

[Tim Northcutt]

That it does....that's the way I thought the 750 concept was heading when they announced it....

[Tim Northcutt]

NOTE TO MODERATOR:

This htread has crossed paths with the "Baby prototypes - why Bother" thread...

My queries about the WR Mazda were answered, so if you want to move any and all elements that pertain to the 675 & 750 questions over there, and even close this thread, or keep it around just so others want to read about theis "Old/New" entry in the ALMS, please feel free to do so....

I started this one and I have no problem with you doing it...

There are many great points of discussion here that would really add to that other thread, and it would keep others who are interested in this issue from skipping back and forth between the two...

Thanks!