Will CART survive?

[kmchow]

With the recent bailing of Toyota and Honda over to the IRL, could this mean the end of CART? If not in '02, in the next few years? Will it just wither and die off? Has IRL won the battle for open wheel supremacy? To me, CART seems have to be losing all the manufacturers and teams that made it the foundation/bedrock of open wheel racing?

[SevenGrain]

Let's not carve CART's headstone just yet.

CART has great events, they have engine and chassis manufacturers lined up and they have a great product. They also have a lot of fans. They just need to find some teams and sponsors that will pledge their support.

It's tough going right now, but CART will survive. I have a lot of faith in Chris Pook.

[f1manoz]

CART have the best events, bar the Indy.

They have survived on only one or two engine and chassis manufacturers before.

Fans are still showing up in droves to watch CART races, unlike the IRL where they only get massive crowds at Indy.

CART have employed the right man in Pook to recover what was lost last year.

CART will survive, but it will be a lot of hard work.

[mac]

Yes.

[StuiE]

And remember MG is coming over


it wont die

[Jordi]

The best series in the world can't die.

[paulzinho]

CART will survive, remember that there is a world recession at the moment so sponsorship will be hard to come by, same situation as the F1 guys really.

And CART is truly international, it has much more interest world wide and it appears that US crowds aren't too bad.

[MaxSport]

No. It can't survive, unless TG decides to let CART handle the roadracing side of Indycars.

I prefer CART, but I am also objective and work in the business.

Here are the problems:

-The teams are not only given engines but also cash dollars.
Without this help teams like Green,Nunn and Walker can't survive.

-Indy has been- and is once again- half the reason manufacturers and sponsor have gone "Indycar" racing.

-With no subsidies from manufacturers and sponsors wanting to compete in the 500, Ganassi,Green, Nunn, Walker and Fernandez will have no choice but to go to the IRL. Maybe even Carl Haas will have to as well. (With Lilly being an Indy based company I can just see the Lola importer having to buy Dallaras and competing in the IRL-or maybe getting out when CART goes down.)

-few cars means tracks like Road America,Mid Ohio and the -TOYOTA LBGP- will break their contracts and very likely become IRL races.


CART was arrogant. TG stayed the course and will now run the whole show. Game,set and match to Mr. George.

You should all be happy. I know that I am because the split was bad for business. The IRL sucked and CART didn't have Indy and was way too expensive. Now we will once again have one series. TG will have roadraces, better cars in 2003 and all/most of the CART teams and drivers. It will be just like it was in 1995.

I just wish it had not taken so long for this to play itself out.

Kurt Maxwell
MaxSport/Motorsports Marketing
Indianapolis,IN USA

Maxsportcentral@hotmail.com

[paul-collins]

Except that TG was quoted (somewhere, I'm looking for it) as saying that he's got no interest in adapting the IRL formula to run road courses. At all. He feels there would be too much compromise. So if CART folds, then fans of open-wheeled races with right turns in North America suffer.

Then they'd have to go to Sportscars (and to a lesser extent F1) for real racing.:P

[mac]

Not only in North America. CART's international following is huge. And if CART fails, don't think that those international fans are going to watch cars turn left all the time. It just won't happen.

[Liz]

Champ Cars will survive only if its fans get to work. We saw what we could do in filing our protest with Bernie -- now it's time to send Chris Pook a letter of support! There ARE a lot of Champ Car fans out here, and IMO what we need to impress on Mr. Pook is that we are not interested in surrendering to Brand X on any terms. To us this is not a 'bidness' -- it's a passion.

The next thing Chris Pook needs to do after he stops trying to suck up to Brand X in hopes that they will throw him a bone, is engage Alessandro Zanardi as Champ Cars' ambassador. If you read his recent interview by Champ Cars, the man is a passionate fan of the series as it was with the old engine formula and cars -- and who on Earth is going to look Zanardi in the eye and say "It can't be done"? Even Maxwell would find it hard to do, I daresay. Alessandro found a way -- and Champ Cars can find a way.

But Pook needs to know he has our support. If all he hears is the whining of the Brand X people he's going to believe they are right. We know they are not.

Let's get started. No more "Can Champ Cars survive?" -- from now on it's "How can we help Champ Cars not only survive but prosper?" Fans have power -- we've proved that in F1 where fans have been in the last 10 years relegated to a cupboard under the stairs -- yet when we stood up, our voices were heard.

Make it your mission and make Alessandro Zanardi your guiding star. If he can do it, we can do it.

CHAMP CAR FANS: LET'S ROLL!

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by paul-collins
Except that TG was quoted (somewhere, I'm looking for it) as saying that he's got no interest in adapting the IRL formula to run road courses

Found it!

"I don't think the package and our formula is necessarily conducive to good road racing," he added. "I'm not interested in changing the cars to make it good for road racing. What we have is a really good product on the oval tracks. That is what we are planning on staying."

-autosport

[MaxSport]

While I read Autosport and enjoy it, they have all the credibility of the National Enquirer.

TG may have said this. However, I think we we will see some IRL road course events. Never as many as CART though. Four or five out of seventeen races at most is my bet.

Let's say that TG has no road races at all. It still doesn't change the fact that no matter what the hard core CART fans do, the loss of Honda,Toyota and Ford will make it next to impossible for teams to continue. These manufacturers provided engines, testing time and cash dollars that can't be replaced easily.

Track owners don't want to see ten or twelve "old cars" (powered by IRL engines that you CART fans distain as they are "low tech") and they can get out of their agreements to hold CART races if the car counts are not there.

CART certainly can't expect to recieve the high fees they have been getting for events and that will effect cash flow.

The stock is trading at a high P/E and is ripe for a short selling spree. But for GF and JV buying it on the dips it would not be at the price it is now. Lower cash flow means that they don't meet projections. That means analysts change from a "hold" to another recommendation.

CART is also losing the promotion of their series to the IRL that comes with a Toyota or Honda as the manufacturers promote their racing involvement to the masses who might not otherwise know about it.

The momentum is not with CART. Corporate America does what is safe and if they see company X pulling out and going to the IRL they tend to want do the same, or get out altogether.

Maybe Pook can create a latter day F-5000. Even if he does so, it will have all the appeal of the American LeMans Series. Which is to say-- hard to sell to sponsors.

Put a fork in it. Like it or not, it is all over. It is not Pooks fault either. It was too late by the time he came in.

I think we should hope TG does have road course races as I for one don't want to see all ovals all the time.

Sportscar racing in N. America may benefit the most by CARTs demise. Again, even if TG does have roadrace events I doubt he will ever have as many as CART did.

KM

[Jordi]

so why you are talking about it on a CART board with hardcore CART fans?

[MaxSport]

Thought you might want to hear the truth. This board is like a circle jerk. Sorry, reality sucks.

[mac]

We're not rolling over Kurt.

We love CART, and I for one find the IRL boring. We get no Nth American sportscar coverage in Australia, so neither will gain me from "CART's demise". We are prepared to fight for the series we love.

[paul-collins]

Have to admit that up in Canada there isn't nearly the interest in the IRL that there is in CART. All you have to do is look at attendance of races, and you'll note that Toronto and Vancouver outpull any IRL event bar the main one. So we don't see CART's death as inevitable here.

[f1manoz]

The only reason all these rumours came up is the interest in Indy. It happens nearly every year nowadays.

No-one was talking about this before the season when we only had 20 cars. Everyone said 'the field is small but the drivers are the best on offer, the cars and engines are the best on offer and the series is still strong.'

And that is still correct today.

[djb]

Mr. Maxwell,
I must disagree as well, along with your "mutual masturbation" analogy (which I believe you have used before). Again, from a Canadian point of view, (meaning very little IRL exposure and promotion) Cart does not give any indication that it is in dire straights. There is very good interest in the series here, due to the Canadians involved, and in the end, it comes down to a very entertaining racing series with a complex range of track types and with drivers like Villeneuve, JPM and even Zanardi, it has a definate link to F1 which many of us fans enjoy, following racers as they sometimes move into F1 (or back even)

You of course have the right to your opinion, but you sure aren't making converts with patronising comments like us all being in a circle jerk. (and anyway, as you can see, most of us are here because we do enjoy and support CART, and the numbers of people attending the races seems to reinforce a good interest.)

yours truly, djb

[Lee Janotta]

Y'know, I just want to try and look at the "big picture" for a moment.

Road racing series in the US have come and gone before. Can-Am, the latter F5000-based Can-Am. Trans Am's fortunes have ebbed and flowed. Sports car racing has died and been reborn innumerable times in North America. And y'know what? CART won't last forever, it _will_ eventually fold. I hope that doesn't happen for a good long time, but it's had a great run of over 20 years now, more than most any other series could hope for.

Road racing doesn't lend itself to stability. Technology is constantly changing and evolving. It's not the most commercially viable form of motorsport. But y'know what? You _can't_ kill it. You'd have to silence hundreds of thousands of hard-core fans, drivers, engineers, crew, and team owners. It's not just a sport for us; it's part of our lives. Not the biggest part, but one we're not willing to give up without a hell of a fight.

So what do we lose if CART folds? Nothing we couldn't have back in 5 years, plus the crippling contractual obligations and mind-numbing financial nightmare CART finds itself in. Going public was the dumbest move they ever made, and that's what will eventually doom the series.

I love CART. But it's loss won't be the end of the world. Hell, in a few seasons, we could have a great series up and running just using, for instance, F3000 cars with turbocharged stock-block V6s! Or any number of other possible approaches.

If CART folds, will it suck? Hell yeah! Will we have a void in North American road racing for at least a few years? Certainly. But the mantra from Field of Dreams applies here.

If you build it, they will come.

[Lee Janotta]

Y'know, I just want to try and look at the "big picture" for a moment.

Road racing series in the US have come and gone before. Can-Am, the latter F5000-based Can-Am. Trans Am's fortunes have ebbed and flowed. Sports car racing has died and been reborn innumerable times in North America. And y'know what? CART won't last forever, it _will_ eventually fold. I hope that doesn't happen for a good long time, but it's had a great run of over 20 years now, more than most any other series could hope for.

Road racing doesn't lend itself to stability. Technology is constantly changing and evolving. It's not the most commercially viable form of motorsport. But y'know what? You _can't_ kill it. You'd have to silence hundreds of thousands of hard-core fans, drivers, engineers, crew, and team owners. It's not just a sport for us; it's part of our lives. Not the biggest part, but one we're not willing to give up without a hell of a fight.

So what do we lose if CART folds? Nothing we couldn't have back in 5 years, plus the crippling contractual obligations and mind-numbing financial nightmare CART finds itself in. Going public was the dumbest move they ever made, and that's what will eventually doom the series.

I love CART. But it's loss won't be the end of the world. Hell, in a few seasons, we could have a great series up and running just using, for instance, F3000 cars with turbocharged stock-block V6s! Or any number of other possible approaches.

If CART folds, will it suck? Hell yeah! Will we have a void in North American road racing for at least a few years? Certainly. But the mantra from Field of Dreams applies here.

If you build it, they will come.

[MaxSport]

This isn't just my opinion. One year ago it was just speculation based on my experience. Now it is what is happening.

Want some proof? I mentioned their stock in an above post.
CART stock closed today at 11.49, down 1.26 and below its previous 52 week low. No amount of cheerleading can change that. However, you could all put your money where your mouths are and support CART by purchasing the stock.

After looking at making an investment of say 50 G's would you still have the same opinions concerning CARTs future?

It doesn't matter if you like CART or not. Hell, I love CART racing. Reality is that teams can't afford to continue next year without the manufacturer subsidies. No cars means no races.

Sorry if none of you like the truth.

KM

[macdaddy]

The last time I was in a circle jerk I came in first AND third!

[SevenGrain]

Circle Jerk? That's pretty rude...

Well if the CART supporters are circle-jerkers, I think that the "CART is Dead" contingent sounds like a broken record.

CART is not dead yet, the fact is that there are twenty cars with twenty drivers unloading in Milwaukee today for a race this weekend.

I'm not about to stick a fork in anything.

Yes, we all understand that it is a very real and scary possibility that CART could disappear, but there is no reason to jump the gun and proclaim CART's death as "reality" just yet.

CART has had some phenominal attendance this year and has some great promotion.

The latest rumor has Infinity (Nissan) leaving the IRL and joining CART. Is it true? Time will tell.

CART is coming up with ways to make it's racing more affordable with new engine and chassis regs, and shortening some events to two-day afairs. They have also put a 2.7 million dollar cap on engine leases.

It was Honda and Toyota who made costs soar in CART to begin with, no wonder they had to subsidise the teams. When the Penske's and Ganassi's are subsidised in the IRL and the smaller teams (the loyal ones that built the IRL) are pushed out, do you think that they will still want some place to race (CART). Of course.

Sure, Honda left CART as an engine builder, but they renewed all of their sponsorship agreements with CART. Toyota isn't gone yet, they are still on the fence regarding CART. Just yesterday Toyota helped in a move to put Dixon in a third Ganassi car, keeping 20 cars in the CART field.

So, maybee we are all circle-jerkers as you so eloquently put it, but it is still too premature to say that it's over.

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Lee Janotta
Road racing series in the US have come and gone before. Can-Am, the latter F5000-based Can-Am. Trans Am's fortunes have ebbed and flowed. Sports car racing has died and been reborn innumerable times in North America. And y'know what? CART won't last forever, it _will_ eventually fold. I hope that doesn't happen for a good long time, but it's had a great run of over 20 years now, more than most any other series could hope for.
<snip>
So what do we lose if CART folds? Nothing we couldn't have back in 5 years, plus the crippling contractual obligations and mind-numbing financial nightmare CART finds itself in. Going public was the dumbest move they ever made, and that's what will eventually doom the series.
<snip>
If CART folds, will it suck? Hell yeah! Will we have a void in North American road racing for at least a few years? Certainly. But the mantra from Field of Dreams applies here.

If you build it, they will come.

Very true. CART in its current form is definitely a mess. Pook may be too late to save the series, although from a racing standpoint he's doing a lot better than previous management. And going public was the dumbest thing they could've done.

Heck, Formula 1 almost disappeared before his bernieness took control, from disinterest and infighting.

IRL's idea about controlling costs is a good one, and I see CART eventually following (and that's what the engine spec harmonization is all about). Teams can become more self-reliant as the costs of fully funding a run drop (compared to now, where teams aren't paying for motors, for example). The promotion of individual races and the series on TV are moving in the right direction, AFAICT. The only part of the series that's suffering is their long-range business planning. They have got do reclaim control of the business structure, or it will all be for naught.

The problem that people have in this forum with this sort of "CART is dead" thread is that they're assuming the second part of the sentence is "IRL wins!" Tony George is stupid if he thinks that the death of CART is good for open-wheeled racing in North America - the IRL isn't going to inherit CART's fans unless they go road racing, and he's not interested. Something new will come up just like F5000 did for Long Beach, and keep the good races alive. The weak events will die, and teams will eventually return.