[Multi 21] Red Bull-Honda

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

The drink existed in Thailand long before Didi found out about it. The Red Bull we know is purely a marketing company that happens to sell an energy drink.

They started selling their product 17 days before their first advert - and I haven't seen them do any marketing for any other brands.....

No matter how people dress it up - they are a company that makes money from their Energy Drink product(s), and spends money on marketing and sponsorship to achieve sales.

Marketing companies spend other people's money on marketing, not their own. Red Bull don't sell their marketing to others......

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But Horner could at least thank Renault for all those titles

Did Renault thank RB for those same titles?

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Casper

Did Renault thank RB for those same titles?

Did they even need to?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Did they even need to?

Of course seeing it was an RB car the motor was in.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

So on racepace on a track that is all about power, the Red Bull Renault managed to beat both Ferraris just on pace alone and could keep the Mercedes cars honest enough.

Meanwhile, even with all the retirements Gasly could not even scrape together a point but rather got overtaken by the woeful McLaren with that same Renault engine... Renault definitely have some work to do in qualifying, but on race day their engine looks very good.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Casper

Of course seeing it was an RB car the motor was in.

But it wasn’t Renault winning the constructors title, they were supplying the engine to help them win it

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But it wasn’t Renault winning the constructors title, they were supplying the engine to help them win it

Maybe F1 should introduce a Manufacturer's Cup, like in IndyCar, for engines/PUs?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

But it wasn’t Renault winning the constructors title, they were supplying the engine to help them win it

Renault still put the stickers on the cars and claimed it like the Williams and Benetton days. Remember it was a Red Bull car and a Red Bull development driver that took those titles.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Did they even need to?

I'd certainly say so, yes.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Looking at the company history, the drink came first (1 Apr 87), followed by marketing (late Apr 87).
The first connection to sport was made in 88.

Not really. The drink was first sold by the founder in 1976, in Thailand - aimed at manual workers.

He met Didi Mateschitz and they formed Red Bull GmbH in 1984, with Didi owning 49% but in charge day to day. Their first sponsorship was Gerhard Berger in F3 in 1984.

They started selling the drink in Austria in 1987.

[Aysedasi]

It never ceases to amaze me - I think the stuff is absolutely foul.......

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Not really. The drink was first sold by the founder in 1976, in Thailand - aimed at manual workers.

He met Didi Mateschitz and they formed Red Bull GmbH in 1984, with Didi owning 49% but in charge day to day. Their first sponsorship was Gerhard Berger in F3 in 1984.

They started selling the drink in Austria in 1987.

Red Bull themselves don't think that they started backing Berger until 1989?

'In 1989, Formula 1 Driver Gerhard Berger, became the first Motorsports Athlete to be sponsored by Red Bull.'

[bjohnsonsmith]

Wikipedia is a lot more reliable than it used to be, so here is there entry on Red Bull, F1 team included.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Bull

[peebee2]

Wikipedia is a joke. Also from there:

“In 1984, he founded Red Bull GmbH [10] with his Thai partners Chaleo and his eldest son Chalerm Yoovidhya, with the launch in Austria in 1987.”

[Oldtony]

This is a question of philosophy and underlying motivation more than dates and records.
Over the years many of the leading figures in Motorsport, particularly F1, have pursued careers and business ventures for the prime reason of getting together a financial base to go motor racing.
My suggestion is that Mateshitz is probably one of those people, and he has been very good at doing both and has developed a broad taste for a wide range of extreme sports.
In his case he has used his marketing nouse for a mass market product to take his "hobby" to the ultimate level as become a leader in both.
Let's face it most of the major companies in the auto industry have been founded by blokes who wanted to go racing. Mateschitz has just used a different product.

By the way, don't particularly like the stuff but I'll concede it is helpfully for jet lag as a short term fix.
Maybe it should be "Red Bull helps you recover from Wings".

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

This is a question of philosophy and underlying motivation more than dates and records.
Over the years many of the leading figures in Motorsport, particularly F1, have pursued careers and business ventures for the prime reason of getting together a financial base to go motor racing.
My suggestion is that Mateshitz is probably one of those people, and he has been very good at doing both and has developed a broad taste for a wide range of extreme sports.
In his case he has used his marketing nouse for a mass market product to take his "hobby" to the ultimate level as become a leader in both.
Let's face it most of the major companies in the auto industry have been founded by blokes who wanted to go racing. Mateschitz has just used a different product.

Taking this back to the original query of why Aston Martin and Red Bull are in partnership then:

The Red Bull product has funded the opportunity for Mateschitz to be involved at the top level of many sports. This would indicate that their sporting mentality is not based on the need to sell a product off the back of their sporting achievements - and in business terms is a hobby or possible marketing tool.

Aston Martin want to sell automobile based products, and target customers who are interested in a 'sporty' aspect to their purchases (in some cases).

So Aston Martin 'sponsoring' Red Bull places them in a sports-first context and not so reliant on demonstrating their technical prowess. I would imagine they are targeting indivuduals who want a product that delivers them the thrill of enjoyment, and so Red Bull would be the ideal place for them.

No one is saying that Aston Martin Red Bull Racing are producing a technology that you are looking for in a road car. The two brands are promoting themselves off the enjoyment side of the activity.

Enjoy sport, drink Red Bull, drive Aston Martin.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

No one is saying that Aston Martin Red Bull Racing are producing a technology that you are looking for in a road car.

But, in the long run, they are!

I must say I disagree with Aston Martin's current design direction, their exteriors and interiors have become garish and far removed from the leather-machined-aluminium-and-wood styling that is supposed to typify an Aston (IMO) -- many of their demo cars have garish all-black all-alcantara interiors which look dreadful IMO (the interior design is awfully tacky too IMO).

BUT to have an Aston Martin car designed by Adrian Newey and built by Red Bull Racing is truly impressive, and I have no doubt it will be one of the most truly incredible hypercars ever to receive road homologation and number plates!!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

I haven't seen the interview and won't unless it gets onto YT but I will say that interviewers ask a question to get the answer they want and he got an answer or lack of which was the whole point. Do you think Horner should have lied or coloured the truth so Renault would not be offended? What good would that do?

If I paid a company that much money and they did not deliver the product they promised over many years I think what Horner has said would be mild compared to my reaction after all the broken promises which are still occurring to this day. I might be wrong here and someone can correct me but has Renault ever apologised for its under achievement that they willingly took the money for?

Originally Posted by wnut

You can also add that Renault were instrumental in putting the current PU rules in place, neatly shooting RBR in the foot.

this for me.

i also tend to forgive RB a lot of things because i like how they show up on race day.

they let their drivers fight, they tend to be ruthless with their drivers but i kind of like that to be honest, and they often make inspired strategy choices partially because they are not afraid to take chances.

taking chances is a big one for me given how the other top teams really dont ever take chances...Merc throwing away a couple of leads this year really highlights this for me.

i want to say in the last few years that all but one of their wins came from pole...for a non works team to do this is really unprecedented in the current F1 era.

for sure they have money so its not all bad for them, but i do tend to view them them as the underdog team in the manu era.

anyways, nothing in this team's history leads me to believe that they cant make a Honda deal work so i have faith they are doing the right thing.

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by wnut

You can also add that Renault were instrumental in putting the current PU rules in place, neatly shooting RBR in the foot.

As far as I am aware, it was "driven" by Mercedes with Renault along as a passenger. The Regie's main input was that the ICE should be of small capacity so that it would fit in with their road car production. They wanted a 4 pot 1.5 or 1.6 litre engine as the base, but were outvoted by Ferrari and Mercedes and the compromise was the current V6. But they weren't truly happy with that.


And initially, the problem with their power unit was the installation in the Red Bull. If you remember back to the very first tests, Toro Rosso completed quite a bit of mileage, whilst the RB never even left the garages.



It has been discussed ad nauseam here, and elsewhere, that it was Adrian Newey's size zero package that was behind the majority of their earlier problems, so I think that it is somewhat unfair to blame Renault for being the driving force behind the current regulations, and for RBR's lack of much success in the last few years.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Wikipedia is a joke. Also from there:

“In 1984, he founded Red Bull GmbH [10] with his Thai partners Chaleo and his eldest son Chalerm Yoovidhya, with the launch in Austria in 1987.”

If that's what happened and the Wikipedia entry is accurate, then I don't see a problem.

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I'm sure he did at the time.....

He didn't, always moaning about how it was the car overcoming the engine deficit.

[Aysedasi]

Oh well..... Never mind.. They'll get over it.

[F1Guy]

What measuring instrument is Horner using to get "within one percent" ??

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...honda-1061355/

[Akrapovic]

Presumably a real one. Red Bull are the only team (along with STR) who have access to both fully updated Honda and Renault engines. So only they can make that call.

[F1Guy]

That, or Horner really does dislike Renault.