Audi R10

[Nordic]

Its also worth noting that up to this point few teams have thought of using anthing other than Petrol. The advantage it had over other fuels was to great.

If the ACO have redressed this and giving Diesel a performance break, as others have said it will be pegged back at some point.

Until then its up to the other teams to knuckle down and get on with it. They know the pace thats needed now.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Nordic

If the ACO have redressed this and giving Diesel a performance break, as others have said it will be pegged back at some point.

It'll be very interesting to see if IMSA make a move to peg back the Audi's before the ACO, especially with the sprint format of many of the ALMS races where the R10's fuel economy will be less of a factor.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

Remind me who won LMP2 against the unbeatable Penske Porsches?

That's right, Intersport.

Maybe they should have listened to the doom and gloom merchants and handed in the towel before the race?

I know exactly who won LMP2 mate !!! And i am delighted for them . In a past post on this forum i did say , they rightly deserved that 2nd place probably more than anyone else .

The "doom & Gloom" merchants are probably right in not being over the moon about the R10 . Now , please explain how the R10 will be good for a championship where privateers have a very small chance of winning ? Ok , argue the diesel route , but I am not totally convinced that the American market is hughly interested "yet" in diesel engines . And I still dont like the sound of it and I wont either , ever .

I wonder what Intersport are thinking of their initial idea of running a LMP1 Lola B06/10 against something like an R10 ?

Im saying its difficult for privateers to race against a car with differant rules and state of the art technology ..... there are "some" who cant see that at all . Privateers cannot afford technology like that unless they get factory backing , or can they . Who are they be then ?

Im not slaging Audi off nor Porsche either , cuz did their math right !!!

Factory teams can boost a series or drive privateers away , especially when they cet performance breaks , no ?

[The Badger]

[QUOTE=JAG]A couple of years down the line, diesel performance breaks will likely be cut back. QUOTE]

Likely to be cut back once the R10 has won and Peugeot too !!!

The performance issue between diesel and petrol engines needs to be addressed now , by the correct people and not in 6 months time or a couple of years .

[The Badger]

Im just sorry that the second Audi didnt retire and for the Intersport Lola to take the win proper !!!

[slicks]

I know they were victorious, but Audi only appeared to dominate because of other car's problems. As much as I have enormous respect for Dyson, why do they continue to have so many problems...and they didn't have the pace. They fuel economy was also horrible!! They did loads of testing yet still were not on the pace nor reliable. I know it is a new car and more work is to be done but........

I, for one, was surprised that the Audi did not dominate to a larger degree. If I were sitting in Ingolstadt (??), I would not be so ebullient. I would be concerned for Le Mans which, from a European (and global) perspective is the most important race.

[jhansen]

I've done some searching. While the R10 has displayed impressive pace by shattering the R8's Sebring track record, the laps completed is also an interesting stat. Here is a summary of Audi's best finishes since 1999, in order of most laps completed. All are wins but 1999.

2001: Audi Sport Team Joest - 370 laps (R8)
2003: Team Joest - 367 laps (R8)
2005: Champion Racing - 361 laps (R8)
2000: Audi Sport Team Joest - 360 laps (R8 debut)
2004: Audi Sport UK Team Veloqx - 350 laps (R8)
2006: Audi Sport North America - 349 laps (R10)
2002: Audi Sport Team Joest - 346 laps (R8)
1999: Audi Sport Team Joest - 310 laps (3rd, R8R debut)

So the R10 betters the R8R's debut, but does not come close to the R8's debut. Still, it starts with a win, but had the field been deeper it may have not won. Although, we also don't know how hard they were pushing.

[slicks]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Although, we also don't know how hard they were pushing.

True. But it they were under pressure, could they be in a positon to push? One car--the thirsty one--failed. If the #2 car had to up the pace, would it have survived? It may be that they were trying two different fuel strategies and the the one with more fuel/more power (presumably) failed.

The details on the number of laps is interesting but how may laps were under full course yellows? in each of those examples.

[Audi R8R]

Originally Posted by slicks

As much as I have enormous respect for Dyson, why do they continue to have so many problems...and they didn't have the pace. Their fuel economy was also horrible!! They did loads of testing yet still were not on the pace nor reliable. I know it is a new car and more work is to be done but........

They didn't do loads of testing though, did they. The Lola's were in essence brand spanking new. They'd had one shakedown (at the Wheels down test) then another test at (I think) Homestead) then one last one before Sebring for the second car. (where the first one got more miles).

That's hardly what I'd call a lot of testing. Especially when you look at LNT who have put in dozens of tests to prepare for racing the Panoz in Europe.
As Dyson themselves admitted. Half a seasons's testing milage, and they'd have been lapping in the 44s. Audi came out of the gate quicker than Lola has. In fact, Lola hasn't actually tested its own car, has it? Its been down to the individual customers to shake them down and start testing. The Lola is going to be undoubtedly quick, they just should have been three months earlier in getting cars to customers.

Fuel economy could come down to lack of milage and the wrong engine mapping setup. Like I say, more milage before Sebring probably would have made it a closer (looking at least) result.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

A little birdy told me the exact numbers over the weekend. Suffice to say it is fodder for the conspiracy minded...;0) Will report on as much at some point this week. Just getting my ducks in a row (birdies?) and collecting my thoughts...

I knew it, I KNEW IT!!!

[Nordic]

[QUOTE=The Badger]

Originally Posted by JAG

A couple of years down the line, diesel performance breaks will likely be cut back. QUOTE]

Likely to be cut back once the R10 has won and Peugeot too !!!

The performance issue between diesel and petrol engines needs to be addressed now , by the correct people and not in 6 months time or a couple of years .

I expect the new Audi would be even quicker if it had a petrol engine in.

Audi have done the best job so far sorting the car. To rush thru a penelty before most of the teams have even set a wheel on the track would be stupid.

Ask yourself this, if the new Lola had won, would you be screaming foul? I doubt it because you would respect the fact that they have done the best job. The Audi won fair and square against teams running unsorted cars on a car breaker of a track, they did the best job.

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by jhansen

I've done some searching. While the R10 has displayed impressive pace by shattering the R8's Sebring track record, the laps completed is also an interesting stat. Here is a summary of Audi's best finishes since 1999, in order of most laps completed. All are wins but 1999.

2001: Audi Sport Team Joest - 370 laps (R8)
2003: Team Joest - 367 laps (R8)
2005: Champion Racing - 361 laps (R8)
2000: Audi Sport Team Joest - 360 laps (R8 debut)
2004: Audi Sport UK Team Veloqx - 350 laps (R8)
2006: Audi Sport North America - 349 laps (R10)
2002: Audi Sport Team Joest - 346 laps (R8)
1999: Audi Sport Team Joest - 310 laps (3rd, R8R debut)

So the R10 betters the R8R's debut, but does not come close to the R8's debut. Still, it starts with a win, but had the field been deeper it may have not won. Although, we also don't know how hard they were pushing.

Wasn't 2002 (low lap count) the year the track melted and had to be repaved while the field idled around for a couple hours behind the safety car?

[jhansen]

Yellows would matter, sure. They had about 22 laps under caution this year. Not sure how many from previous years. You can also look at average speed of the race. In 2001 it was about 114 mph on average, in 1999 it was about 95.5 mph on average, this year it was about 107.6 mph on average.

[Paddy_NL]

interesting figures

[Flat12-Aircool]

[QUOTE=Nordic]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I expect the new Audi would be even quicker if it had a petrol engine in.

Audi have done the best job so far sorting the car. To rush thru a penelty before most of the teams have even set a wheel on the track would be stupid.

Ask yourself this, if the new Lola had won, would you be screaming foul? I doubt it because you would respect the fact that they have done the best job. The Audi won fair and square against teams running unsorted cars on a car breaker of a track, they did the best job.

Oh here we go, now we get the "You will respect Audi's engineering authoritai!" mantra brigade. If you have a 2 second a lap advantage over your nearest rival then you hardly need to push your car to breaking point do you?

All people want to see is a level playing field, and for a car to have "earned" their victory and not have it handed to them on a plate by regulations that Neutralise Petrol engines strengths whilst maintaining Diesels own Torque/Econ advantage.

If a 1:45 lap of Sebring isn't evidence enough, is the R10 going to have to do a 3:28 of Le Mans until some people realize things are unbalanced?

[jhansen]

Thanks for the sarcasm Paddy!

[canam]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Yellows would matter, sure. They had about 22 laps under caution this year. Not sure how many from previous years. You can also look at average speed of the race. In 2001 it was about 114 mph on average, in 1999 it was about 95.5 mph on average, this year it was about 107.6 mph on average.

Same difference. Yellows reduce average speed.. You could have a land speed record for a single lap and have an average speed of less than 30 mph with fistful of yellows.

I would look at a couple of stints under green.

Regarding Dyson: Three to five days testing is not 'limited testing' by any stretch of the imagination. I can forgive the reliability aspect of being a new car but they did not have the pace!! I will give the them benefit of the doubt and pray that they improve.

[JAG]

Sorry, but there are some fairly unfathomable comments regarding the R10.

How can you possibly ask for penalties against a car that was up against two unsorted LMP1's?

The only sorted LMP car, other than the Audi, run by a top line team, with drivers to match Audi, was the Penske Porsche.

Depsite being P2's they were always a threat on pure pace, now what would a P1 have done?

This is top of the line prototype racing, the whole essence is to find the 'unfair' advantage. Correct me if I'm wrong, but diesels are not limited to Audi and Peugeot, anyone can run them. Judd have one in the works already, although personally I'd take the AER Turbo for the next couple of seasons.

Audi showed they are more vulnerable to reliability issues, despite no serious competition. What will happen if a reliable petrol P1 is still on their tails after 12 hours at Le Mans, could Audi push the car, or wil they have to nurse it home?

We simply don't know.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by canam

Same difference. Yellows reduce average speed.. You could have a land speed record for a single lap and have an average speed of less than 30 mph with fistful of yellows.

I would look at a couple of stints under green.

Regarding Dyson: Three to five days testing is not 'limited testing' by any stretch of the imagination. I can forgive the reliability aspect of being a new car but they did not have the pace!! I will give the them benefit of the doubt and pray that they improve.

They didn't have the pace because the reliabilty issue's prevented them getting a good set-up.

Look at it this way. The new Dyson cars matched the pace of their well sorted 'MG' Lolas in previous years, which were amongst the quickest cars in qualifying.

McNish did what he described as his 'best ever' qualifying lap, The second Audi was in the 1.47's, a time matched by Dyson in early season testing.

Look to Europe, the brand spanking new Chamberlain Lola P1 has been lapping 3 seconds quicker than their Lola P2. Intersport were in the 1.49's at Sebring. All being equal Dyson should/could have been in the 1.46's.

[jhansen]

That is more or less what I was trying to show with the laps completed. We don't know what the outcome would have been had they been pushed. But we do know the performance wasn't that outstanding considering the number of laps completed. I think Pescarolo could have come up with a victory had they brought both cars. Heck, a restricted R8 could have won.

It was a great victory. But this car is not a world beater yet.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by The Badger

The performance issue between diesel and petrol engines needs to be addressed now , by the correct people and not in 6 months time or a couple of years .

1. It was the goal of the ACO to give diesels an advantage. If they have succeeded, that was their goal.

2. Privateers can purchase diesel engines, starting in 07'.

3. There is no current proof, that a sorted petrol engine prototype will not contend with a sorted diesel prototype.

The Audi R10 has MUCH more testing under it's belt than the Lola B06/10. The Lola was MUCH slower than it had been in testing, so you have to ask yourself why this was the case. The track wasn't slower, so it would suggest that perhaps Dyson was not pushing the car, trying to get points, and a finish, instead of an ultimate pace.

Give this some time people, we are in an area of unknown, and far too many people are jumping to wild conclusions, which don't seem to be supported by facts.

[canam]

Originally Posted by JAG

They didn't have the pace because the reliabilty issue's prevented them getting a good set-up.

All being equal Dyson should/could have been in the 1.46's.

And they didn't (or did they)get good setup and they weren't (in the 46s).

The stopwatch and the checkered flag determine who did what. Cruel but there is only one winner--and the other guy was not even close. Sorry, no banana.

On the lighter side, AER should buy an oil company. 45 minute stints make the 5 Litre Judd look extraordinarily frugal.

Yeah, I know. First race with a new engine. If only.....

[The Badger]

Would i be screaming foul if the B06/10 had won ? No ..... i would have been surprised . I guess im just tired of Audi winning everything . How many races did the R8 win from how many starts ?

With respect to Jag .... about everybody can run a diesel .

You can if you had one , in your range . What can Porsche do about that then ?

Didnt they alreaady say that their figures were in favour of a diesel engine and that in their view they couldnt compette against one ?

[JAG]

Dyson were plagued with problems all week, with a car that had only completed two limited test's.

The car was still being shaken down at Sebring, problems were highlighted, and on the spot solutions found.

They were still looking for a set-up after qualifying.

As has been said, Dyson have an eye on the championship. Their only concern was getting some running, acquiring data and reaching 75% race distance to gain championship points.

As for the AER V8, I don't think there's much doubt it's going to be the class leading engine in P1, for petrols anyway.

Again, an engine pretty much straight off the test bed.

Audi, Porsche, and all manufactuers pound away for weeks/months away from praying eyes, ironing out the bugs.

Audi and Porsche have quick cars, however both showed they still have some way to go reliability wise.

[Fogelhund]

I didn't know that the ACO had a rule that stated manufacturers need to have a diesel car in production, in order to compete with a diesel.

IF Porsche made a diesel LMP, you don't think that technology would end up in the Cayenne?

BTW, link to a Porsche diesel.
http://www.pdce.de/uploads/pics/p144_01.jpg