[BTCC] Snetterton 20/21 May 2023, Rds. 7/8/9

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I raced a Special Saloon in from 1996 to the last race of the season in 1970 mainly in the Redex Special Saloon Championship. Us competitors had to compete against the driver who was without a doubt the fastest man of his time, Gerry Marshall, with his Vauxhalls. We didn't go crying to the rules setters complaining that we couldn't beat him all the time

I'll refer you back to Craner Curve's post earlier. We are defiantly not in the 'under 25' category.

So much motorsport these days is about BOP. GT3 and TCR formula are built on that principal. WEC and IMSA are largely the same. BTCC won't open use that term but the combination of spec components and boost adjustments means that's effectively what it is. If you saw any of the N24 this weekend they even had several BOP adjustments between sessions. The idea of slowing down the best car/driver is not that unusual.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I must admit that I am somewhat frustrated by a number seemingly demanding or hoping that the NAPA cars are hobbled in some ways; this seems to me that they believe that the rules should be created around the lowest common denominator rather than admiring excellence by any team in producing the most competitive car.

I raced a Special Saloon in from 1996 to the last race of the season in 1970 mainly in the Redex Special Saloon Championship. Us competitors had to compete against the driver who was without a doubt the fastest man of his time, Gerry Marshall, with his Vauxhalls. We didn't go crying to the rules setters complaining that we couldn't beat him all the time because they would have just told us to "Have sex and travel". It was up to us to improve our cars to try to get the best of him, and others like the TEAC Team (also raced under differently named entrants) cars that were prepared at Ford's competition HQ at Boreham because one of the drivers was the son of a Ford director.

NAPA have, as the drivers said over the weekend, been preparing the cars and testing them over the winter to produce the package we see now. There was nothing stopping the other teams doing the same.

Can you imagine the furore that would have been created if, during the years that Schumacher or Lewis were dominating F1, the other teams went to the FIA or Mr Ecclestone asking them to peg their cars back so that they could then be more competitive?

It's up to the other teams to pull their fingers out. However, I do think that if Ingram had been feeling better (he was said to be unwell) he might well have been able to spoil NAPA's party even more.

For the record, I agree with you because I want to see the best teams, drivers and cars win.

However, BTCC pretends to be a balanced series, and I believe that's where the issue is. We say the other teams should pull their finger out - but the cars are balanaced and penalised and weighed up and down to make them equal. Then we have bingo balls in a tub to reverse grids, complex tyre rules and scaling hybrid matrix that decide how much you're allowed to use. The entire series is build to stop domination of a single team. With that info, it really shouldn't be on the others to improve - it's on TOCA to peg cars back to create a fight.

You can have performance balanced, or you can have best team wins. You can't have both. BTCC appears to want both.

[Matt K]

Well, actually, I'm just above 25 and personally I'm very happy with the 'dominance.' I've never liked the ballast, this made racing too random and it never feels good when an eventual champion has to settle for 4th-5th-6th in most races because they can't do anything else with a heavy car. That's just not fair.
Yes, Sutton's dominance is okay for me because he's been one of my favourite drivers but still, the BTCC rules are such that it's impossible for a driver to win absolutely most of the races in a similar way that happens in F1 so the diversity in results still will be and there will be seasons when the title fight is super close until the end.
But at the same time there's nothing better for me to just watch with excitement and admiration the best touring car drivers fighting for another win, another title and cranking up their statistics (yes, I've got a thing for stats).
Constantly the same names fighting for a podium? That's fine for me, they're the best driver/team combination. Much better than a random driver being in the fight for a win just because of a lot lighter car/lot better tyres etc etc.
And if you look at the results of the BTCC, the variety is still a lot greater than in F1 for example. That's something to embrace but watching the best of the drivers constantly in the top is the best possible way.
I'd rather remember this time as an era of Sutton v Turkington, Sutton v Ingram, Sutton v Ingram v Hill etc, than just a mixture of random results helped by gimmicks.
But yeah, someone will probably tell me that the BTCC is an entertainment after all...

[crmalcolm]

I think, rather than concentrating on who is 'dominating' at the front, it might be worth looking further down the field to see if a car is 'too good'.

I appreciate that a lot of this is also down to quality of driver, but what happens if you look at the average result of the combined 2nd/3rd place of each car on the grid?
Does it show a clear 'dominant' car?

So here goes:

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think, rather than concentrating on who is 'dominating' at the front, it might be worth looking further down the field to see if a car is 'too good'.

I appreciate that a lot of this is also down to quality of driver, but what happens if you look at the average result of the combined 2nd/3rd place of each car on the grid?
Does it show a clear 'dominant' car?

So here goes:

Cupra above Honda! Even with 2 at the very back!

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I think those placings also need context.

Less hybrid than the field due to R2 result.
Tyre disadvantage due to selection for R3.
Teammates taking each other out.
Makes other than Ford finished ahead of them in R3 (Hyundai, Toyota, Honda).

Subaru - only Sutton and his team made it work

Infinity- Only Sutton and his team made it work

Ford - years of averageness with the odd flash in the pan - until now.

To peg back a clear talent would be just plain unfair After years of Honda / BMW domination its a nice change

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Cupra above Honda! Even with 2 at the very back!

It's 2nd and 3rd placed car for each type, so the 2 Cupras at the back don't get counted

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by redshoes

It's 2nd and 3rd placed car for each type, so the 2 Cupras at the back don't get counted

It's also just a different way of looking at the results. It is in no way meant to be a definitive case for any form of BoP to be applied - but shows that when you look more towards the 3rd placed car rather than the 1st, there seems to be a few distinct classes in the field.

I would summarise it as:

Ford and BMW very close - a good battle between the two makes.
Hyundai, Toyota and Cupra all close - highlighting how well Ingram (and to a certain extent Butcher) is performing, and also how well the Cupra is going this year as an all-round package.
Honda and Vauxhall falling adrift - this might be down to the quality of the drivers in those teams, but neither looks like a car that can regularly contest wins at the moment.

[coffinpilot]

I'm sure I saw Matt Neal in Team Hard gear yesterday, sitting behind the paddock at a picnic table on a phone - same coloured gear as Barry Plowman - the other HARD 'teams' (Blue and Orange) were in awnings.
Anybody else see that, or was my £7.50 bacon sarnie laced with hallucinogenics?!!

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

I'm sure I saw Matt Neal in Team Hard gear yesterday, sitting behind the paddock at a picnic table on a phone - same coloured gear as Barry Plowman - the other HARD 'teams' (Blue and Orange) were in awnings.
Anybody else see that, or was my £7.50 bacon sarnie laced with hallucinogenics?!!

Actually I’m sure I saw him in the back their garage on TV or social media as well, either that or his lookalike!

[schanche]

Sutton was class yesterday suited to the Focus and as Harvey pointed out wasn’t in any of the top 10 fastest through the speed traps in of the sectors just good all round, to have all the BMWs at the end on Hards was not a good decision.Blundell in an interview at the start of the coverage said most of the teams would all be on softs and that never happened.

[Mike Harte]

I was only half listening, but Tim Harvey mentioned that Neal was there supporting a friend who was in one of the support races. It's possible that the friend was driving a Hard prepared however, don't overlook the fact that some of his guys are also helping out with the Hondas.

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

I was only half listening, but Tim Harvey mentioned that Neal was there supporting a friend who was in one of the support races. It's possible that the friend was driving a Hard prepared however, don't overlook the fact that some of his guys are also helping out with the Hondas.

Think it was Preen who finished second in Radicals, so don’t think there’s a Hard connection there.

Incidentally though they’ve now picked up Connor Mills, who had the big roll in the Legends at Brands.

[v8supes]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

I'm sure I saw Matt Neal in Team Hard gear yesterday, sitting behind the paddock at a picnic table on a phone - same coloured gear as Barry Plowman - the other HARD 'teams' (Blue and Orange) were in awnings.
Anybody else see that, or was my £7.50 bacon sarnie laced with hallucinogenics?!!

Saw the Team Dynamics trailer being used in club racing the other week

[billy bleach]

Sad the likes of Neal and Plato have slipped away without any recognition

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by v8supes

Saw the Team Dynamics trailer being used in club racing the other week

They have a "customer racing" program, and have been running a TCR Audi at various events this year.

[hen henths]

I'm afraid that was one of the least exciting BTCC weekends for me too (Except for qualifying but I don't like to see cars sliding off on oil like that - very glad it wasn't more serious).

I'm very much enjoying seeing Ash and the other Fords get some great results from their hard work after a more diffficult year last year. But like others here I'm really not a fan of the option tyres. I want to see overtakes based on skill and commitment rather than cars sailing past others that are completely hobbled.

That said it was quite a spectacle seeing Dan Cam bouncing over those kerbs at the end of race 3. Nice fight back and a pity all the races aren't a bit longer.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by coffinpilot

I'm sure I saw Matt Neal in Team Hard gear yesterday, sitting behind the paddock at a picnic table on a phone - same coloured gear as Barry Plowman - the other HARD 'teams' (Blue and Orange) were in awnings.
Anybody else see that, or was my £7.50 bacon sarnie laced with hallucinogenics?!!

You certainly did

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Sad the likes of Neal and Plato have slipped away without any recognition

Plato retired and Neal is still in the paddock.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Plato retired and Neal is still in the paddock.

Hold the front page

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Hold the front page

Point is that neither of them slipped away without recognition. No need to be a dick.

[Adam43]

Stop now. We don’t need another of those threads. /mod

[ScottS]

Is anyone gutted that ITV Sport don't clip together any of the on-board footage that they have in their possession? I'd love to see the pole lap from Sutton, some of the Cammish overtakes, the amazing car control from Dan Lloyd as he's sliding across the grass on full throttle and full opposite lock just to mention a few.

Hell, if they gave me access to the footage, I'd clip it together for free.

[Pdh]

Originally Posted by ScottS

Is anyone gutted that ITV Sport don't clip together any of the on-board footage that they have in their possession? I'd love to see the pole lap from Sutton, some of the Cammish overtakes, the amazing car control from Dan Lloyd as he's sliding across the grass on full throttle and full opposite lock just to mention a few.

Hell, if they gave me access to the footage, I'd clip it together for free.

ITV only have 4 onboard camera cars each weekend to use footage from. Snetterton they were Collard, Pearson, Turkington, Thompson. All cars have one onboard camera that toca can use

[ScottS]

Originally Posted by Pdh

All cars have one onboard camera that toca can use

It's those cameras that I was referring to as TOCA must have all the footage from every car from every practice, quali and race. I'm sure there are plenty of people like me that would happily cut the onboards together and make a compilation of top 10 on boards from the weekend for everyone to see (for free if cost was an issue) like the F1 does from the TOCA footage.

It's such a shame that the only footage we get to see is what the director cuts to on the day. The amount of great battles and overtakes that must get missed and never seen because the director can not show 2 things at once.

As an example, the Dam Cam quali incident is sat somewhere on a hard drive. But because it was recorded on one of TOCA's cameras, it will never see the light of day apart from some grainy footage from a BMW a distance away.