[BTCC] BTCC 2019 - Brands Hatch GP - FINALE

[Sodemo]

Part of the problem is this nonsensical "race to the line" approach that the BTCC has when throwing a safety car. If there is a hazard on the track, a lot of the time the drivers wont know exactly where this hazard is, what if the hazard itself is 500 yards just before the finish line and the cars are still "racing to the line"? An accident could well occur in that scenario if a driver doesn't see a yellow or even if they do they might not see the fact that for example the track could be blocked.

I can of course appreciate that there is a general lack of respect for yellow flags and marshal safety which runs throughout all (top level) motorsport.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Part of the problem is this nonsensical "race to the line" approach that the BTCC has when throwing a safety car. If there is a hazard on the track, a lot of the time the drivers wont know exactly where this hazard is, what if the hazard itself is 500 yards just before the finish line and the cars are still "racing to the line"? An accident could well occur in that scenario if a driver doesn't see a yellow or even if they do they might not see the fact that for example the track could be blocked.

I can of course appreciate that there is a general lack of respect for yellow flags and marshal safety which runs throughout all (top level) motorsport.

your just wrong. they dont race to the line! they race until they see the first yellow flag. if that yellow flag is 500 yards before the start line then thats where they stop racing. dont you even watch the races??

[S griffin]

I agree that at times they are too hasty to throw a SC, especially as in the past a car has got going again. However I saw a close call with a Ginetta at Silverstone, before they threw the SC, so it's a tricky decision

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

your just wrong. they dont race to the line! they race until they see the first yellow flag. if that yellow flag is 500 yards before the start line then thats where they stop racing. dont you even watch the races??

Happy to be corrected by a marshal, but I believe the rules are that they are free to race until the first "Safety Car" board is shown, and that could be at any point around the circuit, dependant on where the Race Director/CoC tells the marshals to display it.

The problem then is that the drivers still carry on at near racing speeds albeit in single file until they reach the safety car itself.

[crmalcolm]

The regulations state:

All competing cars, when notified of the Safety Car intervention (by the flag signals, SC boards,
or by any other means) will reduce speed and line up behind the Safety Car,

The flags and SC board start at the finish line, then 'flow' to each post in both directions around the circuit

[RS67]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Personally speaking the Jordan Cammish bs should have resulted in black flags, the naughty step on the bus and maybe a race ban.

I am surprised it was Cammish that got penalised for that and not Jordan. Cammish had crossed the line in front of Jordan, yet Jordan kept trying to overtake him whilst following the safety car. Neither car was going quick when they touched during the safety car period, no one was in any danger. Cars have even knocked into each other in similar conditions when in close formation during the media day photo shoots.
Because Jordan kept trying to overtake Cammish, he was preventing him from weaving to keep heat in his tyres. If anyone should have been fined or penalised, it was Jordan.

[Jon411]

Someone has posted on Pistonheads suggesting Dynamics didn't remove the brake covers they used earlier in the day in the wetter conditions from Cammish's car which may be the reason for the brake failure.

[Greem]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

The regulations state:

All competing cars, when notified of the Safety Car intervention (by the flag signals, SC boards,
or by any other means) will reduce speed and line up behind the Safety Car,

The flags and SC board start at the finish line, then 'flow' to each post in both directions around the circuit

These days with every flag post in radio contact with race control (almost certainly at BTCC and bigger meetings, but not necessarily at clubbies), the instructions are relayed directly - they can still be missed, so if you see a board preceding or following you then you do the same but if you hear the command over the radio, you do it as soon as is practical.

I say that deliberately, as if you're the person on the back end of a double waved yellow it's pretty hard to pick up the SC board at the same time, which is where teamwork comes in!

This is why DA and TH always say "race until they see the first board".

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by RS67

I am surprised it was Cammish that got penalised for that and not Jordan. Cammish had crossed the line in front of Jordan, yet Jordan kept trying to overtake him whilst following the safety car. Neither car was going quick when they touched during the safety car period, no one was in any danger. Cars have even knocked into each other in similar conditions when in close formation during the media day photo shoots.
Because Jordan kept trying to overtake Cammish, he was preventing him from weaving to keep heat in his tyres. If anyone should have been fined or penalised, it was Jordan.

huh?
it was jordan that crossed the line first not cammish. thats why cammish was penalised

[Akrapovic]

They both should have been penalised. There is no way either driver knew who was actually first. It was far too close to call. The problem wasn't the cars being in the wrong order - the problem was cars side by side and hitting each other. And both were guilty of that.

One of them should've filed in behind and asked TOCA to look at it. The outcome would've been the same (the right car in front) and nobody would've been put in danger.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

huh?
it was jordan that crossed the line first not cammish. thats why cammish was penalised

Crossing the line is not the point. Who reached the line first is a red herring.

They both should have slowed down (and fallen into line) as soon as they were aware of the SC. The boards, if displayed at the finish line, would have been visible from before the line. Drivers should not race to the board (or flag), but race up to the point they see the board/flags. If that is visible from 200m away, that is where the racing should stop.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Crossing the line is not the point. Who reached the line first is a red herring.

They both should have slowed down (and fallen into line) as soon as they were aware of the SC. The boards, if displayed at the finish line, would have been visible from before the line. Drivers should not race to the board (or flag), but race up to the point they see the board/flags. If that is visible from 200m away, that is where the racing should stop.

no argument from me on that. but i was correcting the poster that said it was cammish who crossed the line first

[RS67]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

huh?
it was jordan that crossed the line first not cammish. thats why cammish was penalised

It was shown by another cars rear facing camera on TV. Cammish overtook Jordan as they approached the line. Cammish was penalised for the contact during the safety car. The stewards even finally notified the teams of their rightful positions before the race resumed, which is why Cammish remained in front when the green flag was waved.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Crossing the line is not the point. Who reached the line first is a red herring.

They both should have slowed down (and fallen into line) as soon as they were aware of the SC. The boards, if displayed at the finish line, would have been visible from before the line. Drivers should not race to the board (or flag), but race up to the point they see the board/flags. If that is visible from 200m away, that is where the racing should stop.

So how do you account for Tim Harvey saying "race to the safety car board"? You don't back off because you see a yellow flag up the road. You race up to that point then back off.

[redshoes]

A lot of GT series run an in-car notification system that flashes up on a screen as soon as the safety car is called (or code 60 for those series that use that). Is it time for BTCC to adopt that?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RS67

So how do you account for Tim Harvey saying "race to the safety car board"? You don't back off because you see a yellow flag up the road. You race up to that point then back off.

A) he's a commentator, and things said in the moment may not be entirely 100% accurate.
B) I'm sure he's said 'race until they see the board' on occasion.
C) the SC regulation is subtly different to the yellow flag regulation.

How do you account for regulation 3.13.6 being written differently to the description you give above?

[Alfisti]

Maybe it's time to look at how our friends in the States do things. Certainly in NASCAR, and reasonably sure about Indycar, yellow lights around the course are turned on by race control, so very visible (high intensity dual flashy jobbies) and not relying on one human getting a message to another human. The lights are instantaneously on when the chap in charge decides it's caution time.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RS67

So how do you account for Tim Harvey saying "race to the safety car board"? You don't back off because you see a yellow flag up the road. You race up to that point then back off.

Spot on.

[RS67]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A) he's a commentator, and things said in the moment may not be entirely 100% accurate.

And professional racing driver. Somehow I think he will know what he is talking about regarding regulations.

[Craner Curves]

I seem to remember Formula Renault having a few safety car issues in the early noughties. They then issued a warning signal that the driver would hear through an earpiece when the sc period began.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by RS67

It was shown by another cars rear facing camera on TV. Cammish overtook Jordan as they approached the line.

and thats why he got penalised. there was a yellow flag at woodcote corner (the one before the line) so cammish overtook jordan under the yellow flag before they got to the line!

[RS67]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

and thats why he got penalised. there was a yellow flag at woodcote corner (the one before the line) so cammish overtook jordan under the yellow flag before they got to the line!

Was there? Odd that he wasn't penalised for overtaking under yellows.

[porsche962fan]

can this matter be put tho rest already ?

[MrsDoubtfire]

Yes very easily. There was no SC board until the finish line and so that is where they raced to. Jordan was ahead albeit marginally - go and check the official timing / lap charts if you want to see it for yourself. Race control did not advise the teams of the correct order - daft in my opinion, just like the delay in throwing the SC. Cammish was penalised for contact and subsequently for overtaking under a yellow flag when WSR protested about the order of the cars across the line, but the penalty did nothing to give the place back.

RS67 seems to have his facts completely wrong.

With a two point difference when the fat lady sang, that had a big impact on the championship.... as did every other small difference over the year.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by RS67

Was there? Odd that he wasn't penalised for overtaking under yellows.

they rolled the whole incident into one penalty
(edit - as per the post from mrs doubtfire directly above)