[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[GT6]

We will have to see once they do some testing but it will sound different and might not be that bad

[FalkenALMS]

Originally Posted by porman

Three cheers for Falken ALMS!

You go out of your way to help us fans and for that I salute you. When is the team going to have some t-shirts available? I went on the site and was unable to find anything.

Good luck testing.

Thank you!

Our t shirts are available on alms.com: http://bit.ly/IeKxRA

[Japanese Samurai]

Not a boxer, not a inline 6 cylinder.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/..._13041701.html

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Japanese Samurai

Not a boxer, not a inline 6 cylinder.

http://www.motorsport-total.com/wec/..._13041701.html

April 17... but what you said is pretty much a direct quote from Hatz.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by deggis

"Purposeful", a bit ironic to use in this context. The couple of beautiful GT1 class cars were only possible of the messy half-GT, half-prototype rules and all those road car Porsche design design are not purposeful on a racing prototype.

That depends on your definition of a prototype. Or rather sportscar. Those GT1 cars are very purposeful if you define sportscar as a sporty vehicle with 2 doors 2 seats and space for some luggage. 90's Le Mans cars could still pass as extreme examples of that. Current 'crafts' barely have provisions for the driver!

Originally Posted by MitchZ06

Gonna scream I reckon.

If you can call the sound of Dyson's AER-Mazda a 'scream', then yes. it inevitably will.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

SPORT-AUTO from 14.06.13 confirmed: Porsche LMP1 will use "Unusual" 4 cyl. Turbo-Engine for Le Mans 2014 (- Blueflame)

I am somewhat expecting a turbo V4 due to it likely being the easiest path to a compact stressed member design.

Thinking WAY outside of the box. Is there any other layout that they could be using that is not in the traditionally (inline, flat, vee) such as a radial (!!??) (Radials use an odd number of cylinders so that is unlikely I think).

Richard

[knighty]

what you need to remember is the Porsche project was personally authorised by Ferdinand Piech who is on the board of VW, the project must be relevant to VW road car projects, therefore an inline engine with 4 cylinders........flat 6's and V engines do not relate to VW mainstream.........yes its a Porsche, but VW are paying the money

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by knighty

what you need to remember is the Porsche project was personally authorised by Ferdinand Piech who is on the board of VW, the project must be relevant to VW road car projects, therefore an inline engine with 4 cylinders........flat 6's and V engines do not relate to VW mainstream.........yes its a Porsche, but VW are paying the money

No they aren't. Porsche just bought back all their sold shares from a Quatarian sheik for a number of 4,5 billion euro's. They are more then capable of paying for their own.

[GTfour]

I suppose they'll use a 4 cylinder boxer then, since the new and coming 'light' Porsche will most likely have such an engine. Won't sound like a cracker though I reckon. But then, most turbocharged Porsches I've seen, didn't blow one of the socks, soundwise...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by knighty

what you need to remember is the Porsche project was personally authorised by Ferdinand Piech who is on the board of VW, the project must be relevant to VW road car projects, therefore an inline engine with 4 cylinders........flat 6's and V engines do not relate to VW mainstream.........yes its a Porsche, but VW are paying the money

I don't know the man, but given his prior history with Porsche, I suspect he is more interested in a solution that can win and less about trying to squeeze the solution into a marketing focused package. Based upon my readings, he always seems to come across first and foremost as an engineer. Why let Audi do as they please and then hobble Porsche?

And... given the wide expanse of existing flat and V designs used by Porsche today and in the recent past (RS Spyder) I can't see any scenario in which those are off the table. However, I would be very surprised to see a flat six. If anything, I think the relevance will come about via the turbo charging, efficiency, etc. I think there is plenty there for the marketing team to be happy about.

Richard

[Spyderman]

OK a couple of thoughts:

1. - The "unusual" reference is I think, in relation to Porsche. They always produce either boxer or V engines. If this engine is in fact "in-line",then it is "unusual" for Porsche.

2. - The Qataris have in fact sold back their shares (10%) but it is in Porsche SE (holding company that sold Porsche AG to VW). They sold it back to the Porsche and Piech families.

3 - It is always important to remember (and often forgotten or overlooked) that Porsche SE owns 50.7% of VAG and is also the majority shareholder in ordinary share capital.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by GTfour

I suppose they'll use a 4 cylinder boxer then, since the new and coming 'light' Porsche will most likely have such an engine. Won't sound like a cracker though I reckon. But then, most turbocharged Porsches I've seen, didn't blow one of the socks, soundwise...

I haven't followed it as closely as I used to, but a new Porsche four cylinder seems to be continuously either moving forward or on hold. Basically I got tired of trying to keep track because it seemed they never can make up their mind as to what to do.

I thought I heard the last time it was put on hold that while Porsche was evaluating both a four and six cylinder design (maybe a modular engine family), that Volkswagon Group felt that Porsche was not the brand within VG to be creating entry level sports cars. That other internal brands (such as VW itself) should fill that niche.

Richard

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Why let Audi do as they please and then hobble Porsche?

Maybe because Audi is Piech's pet project and he has been in a state of war with the rest of the Porsche family for the best part of the last 50 years. Remember, he was basically forced to leave Porsche... ever since that, he has done everything in his power to outdo Porsche family... He even had an public affair with Marlene Porsche for 12 years(and 2 kids), the (ex)wife of his cousin Gerd Porsche.

1. - The "unusual" reference is I think, in relation to Porsche. They always produce either boxer or V engines. If this engine is in fact "in-line",then it is "unusual" for Porsche.

remember 944 and 968... Porsche made inline 4 engine before.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

Maybe because Audi is Piech's pet project and he has been in a state of war with the rest of the Porsche family for the best part of the last 50 years. Remember, he was basically forced to leave Porsche... ever since that, he has done everything in his power to outdo Porsche family... He even had an public affair with Marlene Porsche for 12 years(and 2 kids), the (ex)wife of his cousin Gerd Porsche.

Again, I don't know the man, but what say "victory" more than getting back control of Porsche (done) and then taking them back to a LeMans victory while at the helm.

I still think that at his core, he is a Porsche (company, not family) man.

Richard

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

Maybe because Audi is Piech's pet project and he has been in a state of war with the rest of the Porsche family for the best part of the last 50 years. Remember, he was basically forced to leave Porsche... ever since that, he has done everything in his power to outdo Porsche family... He even had an public affair with Marlene Porsche for 12 years(and 2 kids), the (ex)wife of his cousin Gerd Porsche.



remember 944 and 968... Porsche made inline 4 engine before.

Yes that is true, but not usual.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

That depends on your definition of a prototype. Or rather sportscar. Those GT1 cars are very purposeful if you define sportscar as a sporty vehicle with 2 doors 2 seats and space for some luggage. 90's Le Mans cars could still pass as extreme examples of that. Current 'crafts' barely have provisions for the driver!

Unless the rules are made in a way that the cars have to be 100% road-legal models, they are going to be first and foremost racecars and there is no way a luggage space is purposeful on a race car.

I think defining "a racing prototype" is easy: anything that doesn't have to be based on a production model by the rules.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by GTfour

No they aren't. Porsche just bought back all their sold shares from a Quatarian sheik for a number of 4,5 billion euro's. They are more then capable of paying for their own.

I must admit its a confusing situation between VW and Porsche, but please read my post again, nowhere does it say "Porsche are owned by VW"......my information came from Ulrich Baretzky when I attended one of his lectures a few months ago, at the end he gave a candid overview of how the Porsche deal was conceived by Piech, and how he wanted gasoline tech to compete with diesel tech as the VW group sell a 50:50 split of both engine types.......Baretzky referred to Piech as "god"........he must know what hes doing for someone of Baretzkys calibre to say that about him.

I must admit the engine choice fascinates me a huge deal, I suspect it will be something extra special, perhaps a new self combustion system which is now advancing well for gasoline engines in research projects, or running a miller cycle.......who knows.......perhaps it will just be a bullet proof 2.0 I4 gasoline direct injection that will actually go the distance, unlike the Mazdas........Mazda and AER fell into the trap of building a superlight engine, and look what happened

[Velociraptor]

Porsche cars is 100% owned by VW Group. Porsche automobil holding SE, is a separate entity, that holds a large portion of VW Group. Porsche Holding SE is owned by the Porsche-Piech family.

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by Velociraptor

Porsche cars is 100% owned by VW Group. Porsche automobil holding SE, is a separate entity, that holds a large portion of VW Group. Porsche Holding SE is owned by the Porsche-Piech family.

Hence Porsche(the familly) is the proud owner of the whole caboodle.

[GT6]

The current desire to fight tax designed complex ownership structures of companies would have fun trying to sort out VAG and the porsche involvement but in its simplest form the former owners of porsche control the largest share of the holding companhy that controls both.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by knighty

I must admit its a confusing situation between VW and Porsche, but please read my post again, nowhere does it say "Porsche are owned by VW"......my information came from Ulrich Baretzky when I attended one of his lectures a few months ago, at the end he gave a candid overview of how the Porsche deal was conceived by Piech, and how he wanted gasoline tech to compete with diesel tech as the VW group sell a 50:50 split of both engine types.......Baretzky referred to Piech as "god"........he must know what hes doing for someone of Baretzkys calibre to say that about him.

I must admit the engine choice fascinates me a huge deal, I suspect it will be something extra special, perhaps a new self combustion system which is now advancing well for gasoline engines in research projects, or running a miller cycle.......who knows.......perhaps it will just be a bullet proof 2.0 I4 gasoline direct injection that will actually go the distance, unlike the Mazdas........Mazda and AER fell into the trap of building a superlight engine, and look what happened

I do not doubt your information at all. The only thing that I'm not too sure of is the "top-down" approach that you suggest (or that was suggested to you) for the decision taken on the in-line 4. Porsche is very concerned with emission reduction (thus the 918 project), and is doing all it can to meet future emission/ consumption regulations. It knows it has to reduce the average consumption/emission values for its fleet. It has a few ways of doing that, but it seems that it has chosen not to introduce more entry-level models (thank God! - The upcoming MACAN is bad enough!), but seems to have chosen instead to reduce engine sizes in future substitution models. The LMP1 project is both Lab and showcase for this strategy.
I think the point that I'm trying to make (rather convolutedly) is that Porsche did not have to be "told" by VAG to build an in-line 4. I think they did it because they wanted (needed) to. I think that it was this very "need" that drove the need for compromise (or broaden to include both gasoline and diesel) in the VAG racing strategy. I don't doubt however that Peich had the last word.

[Velociraptor]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I do not doubt your information at all. The only thing that I'm not too sure of is the "top-down" approach that you suggest (or that was suggested to you) for the decision taken on the in-line 4. Porsche is very concerned with emission reduction (thus the 918 project), and is doing all it can to meet future emission/ consumption regulations. It knows it has to reduce the average consumption/emission values for its fleet. It has a few ways of doing that, but it seems that it has chosen not to introduce more entry-level models (thank God! - The upcoming MACAN is bad enough!), but seems to have chosen instead to reduce engine sizes in future substitution models. The LMP1 project is both Lab and showcase for this strategy.
I think the point that I'm trying to make (rather convolutedly) is that Porsche did not have to be "told" by VAG to build an in-line 4. I think they did it because they wanted (needed) to. I think that it was this very "need" that drove the need for compromise (or broaden to include both gasoline and diesel) in the VAG racing strategy. I don't doubt however that Peich had the last word.

I'm not convinced by your argument for the inline-4 engine... Here's why... The only car that is going to use inline 4 engines is Macan... and that one will be Audi/VW 2.0 TFSI engine. The "cheap" entry level sports car has been cancelled, VW also put BlueSport roadster on ice, and without that, there is no platform for the car and no economies of scale to make it significantly cheaper than Boxter. A flat 4, on the other hand, is a given... It will probably appear in the Boxter after the refresh, and may even lead to a 912 version.
The other thing is, being part of VW Group, Porsche has the advantage that the avarage emissions of the entire group are taken, not just Porsche's. That's not to say they wont strive to reduce emissions...

[Spyderman]

Perhaps I overstated my case for the in-line 4. It is not the in-line 4 specifically that will replace current engines. It is the concept of smaller engines (accompanied with Turbo's and other developments) that will replace current engines. This needs to be a) further developed to todays performance requirements and emission levels and b) the idea needs to be "sold" to current and potential customers.

[Breitling24]

Making clear, or adding more confusing to the "Who owns what" discussion.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/18/p...lding-company/

;-)

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Breitling24

Making clear, or adding more confusing to the "Who owns what" discussion.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/06/18/p...lding-company/

;-)

This article makes things perfectly clear.

Porsche Holding owns VW.

VW owns Porsche Automobiles.

Done, simple as that.